rec.autos.simulators

-Brian Motisko
(Motisko) on hawaii

It is the policy of the NASCAR Racing League to NOT discuss internal
inquiries, investigations, and/or issues publicly.  However, due to a
recent barrage of mis-information as it relates to a situation with
the IVGA, we feel it is necessary to make a post to r.a.s. to clarify
the situation.

I again want to repeat that it is the official policy of the NRL to
NOT discuss these situations in public.  As such, WE WILL NOT RESPOND
IN THIS NEWSGROUP AND/OR THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER AS IT RELATES TO THIS
SITUATION.  Further, we will not publicly discuss on-going issues,
inquiries and investigations EVER.  

This policy is a two-way street.  Public discussion of internal
issues, inquiries or investigations is grounds for immediate and
permanent ejection from the NRL.  We take personal privacy VERY
seriously, and we will not jeopardize any NRL activities by publicly
disclosing information until and unless we: A) have completed our
inquiry; and B) determine that it is necessary to do so in the greater
interest of communication, competition and fairness.

As it relates to the IVGA issue at hand...

1)  It is important to keep in mind that the NRL is not yet available.
Hawaii is a prototype which has served the purpose to help us make NRL
a better sport.  Hawaii is not NRL.  NRL will not be available until
early next year.  Please do not confuse the 2.

2)  NASCAR.EXE 1.x & MULTI.EXE are IRRELEVANT to this discussion.  We
are talking about NRL, not Hawaii.  NRL will use NASCAR 2 -- a
completely new product with new physics & setups.

3)  It is of utmost importance to make NRL a fair and enjoyable sport.
As such, it is equally important for us to take all measures to
actually PREVENT anyone from having an unfair advantage, as it is for
NRL to preserve & protect the belief/understanding/impression that
noone does have an unfair advantage.

4)  NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told that they can
not compete in the NRL.  We have been conducting an inquiry into
whether or not the IVGA might have an unfair advantage in the NRL by
collecting fast car setups from users.  Individual(s) from IVGA have
jumped to conclusions based on PRIVATE and INTERNAL communications
during the course of our inquiries.

5)  Relating my 2 previous points, it is IRRELEVANT whether or not
anyone in the IVGA uses accumulated car setups to gain an unfair
advantage in the NRL.  The fact that it would be possible to do so is
enough to raise concern/question that anyone(s) who has immediate
access to this information MIGHT have an unfair advantage.  That will
not be allowed in the NRL.

6)  I REPEAT: NOBODY from or associate with the IVGA has been told
that they can not compete in the NRL.  We have conducted an inquiry,
and made a policy statement in regard to the organized collection of
user setups WITHIN NASCAR 2 AND THE NRL.  Since neither of these are
commercially available, nothing has yet happened other than a clear
policy statement by the NRL.

7)  Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE
WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE,
WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF
THE NRL.  This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR
employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in
the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said
organizations.  This rule will also be applied to any and all outside
organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to
information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the
impression of an unfair advantage.

8)  Individuals are free to exchange setups among themselves.  The
organized collection of setups is permitted when done for the SOLE
PURPOSE of open & public exchange with the full knowledge and
permission of the owners.  However, collecting and/or exchanging
setups for purposes other than the above is subject to this NRL policy
& will be scrutinized as such.

9)  Beta testers of Papyrus products are NOT paid agents.  Beta
testers do receive incomplete versions of our retail products before
they are commercially available -- but nothing more.  As it pertains
to the NASCAR Racing League, they do not have an advantage.  People
who participated in the closed testing of Hawaii were immediately
challenged, equaled and in many cases, surpassed by new users once
Hawaii went public.  It is also important to note that NASCAR 2 will
be commercially available for months before NRL is released.

Ed Martin
Manager, NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed:

Thanks for your response to all of us!!!!

Don Wilshe

Before you read this stuff come and VISIT GIDGET.. She can put you in
the right FRAME OF MIND for whats to come...

http://www.ivga.com/ppgidget.htm
http://www.ivga.com

Dave Matson - Head of HAWAII MP Spoke:

I quote "

Don,

You have NOT clearly and definitively maintained the fact that you DO
capture
all setup information throughout our conversations here, which is why we
have
kept asking. These facts have not been made clear to all of your users,
either.
I want to see a huge disclaimer right up front on the fastlap software
that
says "By running this program we will have your full setup for analysis
purposes."

End of Quote"

Now I am not the smartest person in the world, but I intepreted this as
some direction from PAPYRUS to tell you people that our 2 lap FASTLAP
program
gathered setup information for the purpose of integrity checking..  

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA  !!!!!!!!!!!!!  Oh now I see they wanted me to tell you,
but
they didnt want you to know that PAPYRUS wanted me to tell you..  

Sort of gets the message out without a connnection.

Well I think it clear that the 2 lap FASTLAP program gathers information
for
the purpose of analysis. THIS FACT HAS BEEN STATED SINCE DAY ONE!!!!!!!!

I was really surprised to find out that this information i had that
allowed
a fast two laps would instantly make me a dominate racer in the NRL.  2
laps
setups with NASCAR 1.21 lets me win every NASCAR 2.0 NRL contest..  I
cant
wait to spend all that $$$$$$$$$$

PAPYRUS you got me spinning..  Make up your mind of you want me to tell
the poor people or not....

IVGA WANTS FROM PAPYRUS A PERSONAL PRIVACY STATEMENT

I want PAPYRUS to tell us now that they will never look at or keep any
of
our personal privacy data in thier role and responsibility of
maintaining
integrity....  

PEOPLE YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A REPLY TO THIS
MESSAGE... THEY JUST CANT SAY
IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 " I think all of the IVGA management and staff should disqualify itself
from NRL
participation."

Last time I went to school that english statement meant get out and stay
the hell out of the NRL.......

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!  Paid Agents..  Paid Agents are people that get Paid
Right!!!!!!!  Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS.

You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test.  And than they
get a free hour when NRL comes out..  DAAAAAAAAAAAA  That is money!!!

PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$

That is reimbursement.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!

What does that mean...  That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED
ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL....

BONK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Another new rule..  

You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test.  And than they
get a free hour when NRL comes out..  DAAAAAAAAAAAA  That is money!!!

PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$

That is reimbursement.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!!

What does that mean...  That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED
ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL....

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!  or a Bump Draft!!!!!!!!!!!

YES THEY ARE THE GET REIMBURSED FOR THIER TEST TIME AND PHONE BILLS!!!!

I am sure glad you cleared that up and talk about a spin...

Jim Janssen , the master of all PAPYRUS PLUG IN integrity software has
written
30,000 lines of c++ Code..  The IVGA would not even be in the business
or
have written a single line of code if we didnt have to.  Why couldn't
PAPYRUS just have done thier job right!!! I hope that NASCAR 2.0 has
some integrity features built in....

Our goal at the IVGA is to be able to delete this code!!!!!

YOU KNOW I CAN FIGURE OUT SOMETHING.  WHO IS IN CHARGE..

NASCAR or PAPYRUS and who runs and makes the rules for NRL..
NASCAR or PAPYRUS!!!

Don Wilshe, IVGA

============================================

<A whole lot of frustrated, senseless rabble snipped>

You just don't get it.  That head must be made of tempered steel!

They wanted it kept private, you made it public.  They wanted their
inquiries, etc. kept private.  Your setup capturing disclosure is a
SEPARATE issue.  So here it is in plain english (read slowly) - Tell
everyone about the fact that you have all their setups - then - Tell no
one about your internal knowledge about Papy's inquiries.

They say no one is yet omitted from the NRL, you say - Oh yes I am.
It's not even here yet.  Helloooo McFly!  If you get a letter saying
"You're out!" THEN scream ***y ***, but deriving inferences from
one man's SUGGESTION about self disqualification is NOT being banned,
YET.  I think you're in a hole with a really big shovel and an
insatiable desire to dig.  Chill out!  Its only getting deeper.

Another key issue - ITS THEIR SERVICE.  If they think someone has too
many setups, then they can boot that someone.  Again, its not here yet.
They're warning one and all about mass collection of setups for N2 and
the NRL.  I'm sure NASCAR is clear about their intended public image.
The last thing Papy and/or NASCAR wants is bad publicity.  The kind of
publicity that could come about if accusations of unfair advantage
arise.  They're nipping it in the bud.  Smart business.

I guess I'm now in 100's of kill files.  My intention is only to maybe
help Don get it or at least chill a little, so he doesn't get booted
from the NRL.  I think he should be able to run on the NRL and let the
cards fall where thay may.  Sit in the big chair of the guy in charge of
all this for just a minute.  He/she is not going to tolerate FUTURE
improprieties, real or perceived.  It is, after all, a war you cannot
win;  they call the shots.

One more note;  this is just my $.02.  No more or less important than
anyone elses.  If you see this as 'Fightin Words', then you don't get
the idea of a free exchange of viewpoints.

Mike - Hawaii driver looking forward to the NRL!

Perhaps I am the one in the dark here.  Maybe I don't have a clue as to
what is really going on.  I do see a very angry human being that has
misinterpreted several communications.  I honestly hope I never find out
'whats really happening';  I hope this all goes away, and N2 is
released, and the NRL is an awesome place to race with ALL the talented
drivers out there, yourself included (without all the strife however).

Mike

In no way do I want to fuel the fire Ed, but you bring up what I think to
be an important issue.

: 7)  Following is the official policy of the NRL: ANYONE AND EVERYONE
: WHO HAS ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT MIGHT PROVIDE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE,
: WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SANCTIONED COMPETITION OF
: THE NRL.  This rule applies to all Papyrus employees, all NASCAR
: employees, all employees of any/all organizations which participate in
: the delivery of the NASCAR Racing League, and all paid agents of said
: organizations.  This rule will also be applied to any and all outside
: organizations and/or individuals who we feel have access to
: information which could provide an unfair advantage *or* the
: impression of an unfair advantage.

Now in laymen terms, just what can this mean? Concerning computer
hardware, it's clear. Concerning setup "tricks", it's clear (ie, a low
fuel setup). But regarding setups themselves, it is real foggy. For
instance, someone with real world knowledge about racing suspensions
would he have "access to information that might provide an unfair
advantage" against a mere computer gamer? How about gamers that have been
playing since ICR1 as opposed to someone just introduced to NCAR2,
wouldn't the experienced have the above knoledge concerning how Papyrus'
sims interpret real world physics?

Not questions with easy answers. I'm not mentioning this in any way
against your or Papyrus, Ed. I appriciate what Papyrus has done over the
years, it all started with Indy 500, then every other package as soon as
it was available up here. Hawaii is a rush, but it's been at least since
June/July since I've called - long distance is a ***, and to my
knowledge there's no leagues running 1am MST.

The suggestion I give to you is this: In order to protect both yourself
and the customer of NRL, Papyrus must improve its manual greatly. When it
comes to setting up a car, it must be more clearer than "Stiffer Shock:
Increases weight transfer at that wheel. Handling becomes more responsive,
car can feel a little 'slippery' as chassis snaps back into place after a
turn". Whatever setups are included with the game, there should be a real
difference between ACE, FAST, and EASY. In ICR2 the only difference was
wing settings. It is in this way that I can see your point #7 comming
accross smoother when the NRL opens up.
    __o
  _-\<,_  Cosmo Potapoff

Don. I don't know what to say. Somehow you have managed
to dig yourself even deeper. It's quite obvious you are now
beyond reasoning with on the matter. Is it that big of a deal to
include a small disclaimer on your web page regarding the fast lap
program? I was going to run Fastlaps until I found out about this
problem. I understand you have the only code to unlock the setups,
but I still feel uneasy about having my personal setup available to
anyone. I work *** those setups, and even if someone can't
duplicate my speed with the setup, it's still MINE. I worked for it, I
earned it. On another note, I hope you can understand this, but I'm
requesting that you take my name off the IVGA member's list. Somehow
you have turned a miscommunication into a full blown out war, and I
don't want to be involved in it.  Good Luck to the IVGA in the future.

Regards,
David Range  

Blaine Bett
Blaine on Hawaii

p.s.--- please take me off of any ivga list's.... i am giving up my
membership... raises too many questions.....

                   "No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans"

IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise
that video simulation *** is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that
individual
can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it
takes
special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find
any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best.  The IVGA is
the
home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world.
Unlike
other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise.  We
use
advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and
technical
inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or
attempting for a world record FASTLAP.  Our goal, like NASCAR, is to
eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing
process.
We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA
software to maintain integrity.  When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has
fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software.

Don Wilshe,

Regarding that last post Don!

Jeez, You really DON'T know when to leave well enough alone do you?
Is it that you WANT to be banned?? From the way you flamed Ed's very
GOOD post, I can see NO other explaination!

PLEASE, for your OWN sake, Give it a REST!

Don Atkins...
Donatkins

Dave Matson tells me one thing and Ed Martin tells me
the opposite..

You can read Matson email to me cant you..

Don

Actually, it would be nice if he just took up golf or something....

Jeff

Right!!!!!!!  Well let me tell you how it works for the BETA TESTERS.
You see they get an hour credit for each hour they test.  And than they
get a free hour when NRL comes out..  DAAAAAAAAAAAA  That is money!!!
PAPYRUS is going to pay the beta testers to for testing that is $$$
That is reimbur***t.... That is PAID AGENTS!!!!!!!!!! What does that
mean...  That means that BETA TESTERS MUST BE INCLUDED
ELIMINATED FROM THE NRL....  >>

What a tirade, Don...Brilliant logic.  So let me ask you where you get
your information on beta testers.  Everything you wrote after that all
hinges upon you claiming to know "how it works for beta testers".  So,
what's your sources. I challenge your assumptions.

Randy

Don,

Please take my name off of the IVGA membership roles.  I have no wish to
be associated with you or your organization and regret ever signing up.

Randy

Don, you got a big box o Pringles on your shoulder.

Your fastlap program DID NOT make clear it stole setups, furthermore, very well
crafted setups from top racers appeared in public after IVGA submission, I
find it hard to believe someone else stumbled on this setup EXACTLY, especially
when it is probably the hottest Martinsville setup around.  You act as if
everyone knew this was occurring.  Not true.

Papyrus is a business, in partnership with NASCAR -- Don, sorry, but IVGA is hardly
a significant concern, nor a significant player in this space.  Papy will get MORE
customers by eliminating these threats than satisfying them.  For you to believe
all this is some EGO trip by Papyrus is silly.  Why the hell do you need setup
information anyways to detect cheating -- that is irrelevant.  I could see you
taking a snapshot of the system to detect TSR enhancment, and EXE checksum to detect
program alterations -- but the setup?  You don't need to know the details of my
setup to know if I am cheating.  You only need it to find out how to go as fast
as the submitter.  

Funny how it has had little impact on the true driving tracks, North Wilkes, Richmond,
Sears Pt, and Phoenix.  HUGE impact on the "setup" tracks, Char, Atlanta, MIS (where
certain drivers show relative dominance compared to the non-setup tracks).

I have no opinion on the BAN or any of that stuff.. I am just very miffed that
it is TRUE that setups were stolen by fastlap, and that nobody knew this was
going on.  Truly devious.  All I want is a fair race.. and I'll take it ANY DAY.

        Tim V

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