rec.autos.simulators

by **Eldre** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 07:46:52

>>I'm
>>still trying to figure how how people can brake so MUCH later without eating
>a
>>hedge... It just doesn't seem possible.

> "To better slow down, brake less you must"
> - Fangioda

>I'm serious. Don't push too *** the brake pedal. I very
>seldom push it farther than 50% down.

>Just another of those counter-intuitive thingies, I guess...

Fangioda?<g>
So if you only use 50% of the brake travel, so your tires squeal under braking?

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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by **Andrew MacPhers** » Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:47:00

> I reckoned that for every 1mph extra speed through every
> corner on an average length circuit, that this would equate to about a
> half a second quicker lap time

Even if your example isn't totally right (I'm not saying it isn't, I'm
just not sure :-), it illustrates the point. Being 1 minute slower at the
Ring than Huttu seems totally depressing. But break it down into loss of
time per corner and you end up feeling much happier... well, less
miserable :-) But never has being so slow been so much fun.

Andrew McP

by **Kirk Hous** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:37:13

I'd like to hear what brake bias' people are running. I right foot brake
with non split axis and I can't get much lower than 54 or 53 before I have
to apply crazy amounts of opposite lock and compromise my corner exit speed.
I did a spy girl comparison of a few laps and I actually beat some of the
Aliens out of corners but even though we brake at about the same point I
brake harder and they gain time going into the corner. I'm not saying I
could lap with Huttu if I left foot braked with throttle(About 45 seconds
behind in GPLRank), he has very consistent exit speed. Are there any other
right foot brakers out there?

> and the really quick guys run brake bias settings thatd kill real people
in
> real cars, they are on the brake and accelerator into bends, and it seems
to
> give you loads of front end grip in the game (try it in real life guys)

> granted, some of the real quick guys can run quick with single axis
pedals,
> but most cant.

> pez

> > I'm going absolutely mental here,
> > I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at a
> > loss.

> > Yes, like everyone I'm gradually knocking tenths off here and there.
> > On VROC the best drivers are about 1-2 seconds max. off my best times at
> > say, Monza...
> > I'm no great driver but I'm not terrible (in real life too). I get a
> seconds
> > advantage for good sim drivers (I get that with all sims!), 2 seconds is
a
> > lot of time, but the top guys probably will outdo me by this in a good
> > hotlap in most sims...
> > But, *** me If I know how to get anything closer to the 4-5 second
gap
> > that top lads have opened up on a regular short circuit. 2 minutes at
the
> > 'ring... and various other unbelievable times after owning it from
> (almost)
> > day 1!

> > Forget about a "How do I go quicker?" post, I ant to know what sort of
> > virtual rocked fuel are Monza 1.26's filling there Lotii tanks with?

> > I don't get it, GPL is the only sim that I have seen guys pulling away
at
> > such a rate from the regular racers without a perf. editor being
> released...
> > this is madness!

> > If I don't get, Perhaps I'll get the dog to bury the CD... any better
> ideas?
> > :-)

by **Maxx** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:59:27

On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:16:42 -0000, "SpeedFreek"

>In a nutshell, what I meant was that however much you
>practice doing ANYTHING, you can't improve forever.

Just want to make the point that should you decide to
become an athlete, at say the discus, and you "throw" it
like a frisbee, you practice for 3-4 years and get to the
stage where you can throw it 40mtrs (I've no idea what
real discuss throws are).

You then get another guy, been practicing all week, but
has read about and practiced the proper technique, who
throws it 60mtrs.

A very exaggerated example, but there are too many
people out there who have been practicing with a less
than full knowledge of technique and have gotten despondent
and maybe even given up on GPL.

I'm not knocking them, just wish they'd realise that you can't
pick up this stuff naturally.

I know that wasn't quite your point SpeedFreek, but it
seemed an opportune moment to make it.

This might be heresy but I think you can become very
quick at GP3/F12000/TOCA2 etc. without needing a
great knowledge of technique, these games do not
require the subtleties (looks odd but speell checker passed
it) of GPL.

Maxx

by **Gerry Aitke** » Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:45:23

> If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable and
> practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.

> At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something else.

> David G Fisher

So that WAS you standing on a ladder outside my computer room...stop
watch in hand...the other night! How any hours have I done now then?

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 05:13:57

> > If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable
> and
> > practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.

> Oh another hit-and-run by DGF. Isn't he nicely trolling these days?

I hit the little icon on the top left of my screen and post a reply to
someone and that is considered trolling? Is there another way to reply to a
newsgroup? I've been posting here for a few years and never knew I was
trolling.

Sure I can. I just don't judge people's skills by their performance after
hundreds of hours of practice.

It's a very nice place to be.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 05:16:13

A computer eye/hand coordination exercise in which every movement has long
since been burned into your subconscious.

David G Fisher

> What might that 'something else' be?

> Marty

> > If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable
and
> > practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.

> > At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something
else.

> > David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 05:18:19

A fraction of the hours that some sim drivers practice.

I could practice a famous violin concerto to the point where I could play it
backwards, but that wouldn't make me a great musician.

David G Fisher

> >If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable
and
> >practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.
> >At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something
else.

> Really? How many hours do you think Herr Schumacher has "driven" to be
> as good as he is?

> Practice makes perfect - people are no less worthy for doing it.

> John

by **Jam** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:49:27

You can't compare real race driving, with a simulation. Sure, GPL is very
realistic, has superb physics modelling, etc.. but you have almost no SA
compared to RL, and you're not risking your life every time you hop in a
car. IMO. GPL is in some ways harder to master... it's 100% accessible, my
grandma could get decent lap times.. but she doesn't know jack about real
race car driving, so could never master it, no amount of practice would make
her lap below 1:28 on Monza. On the other hand, give GPL to Clark or Gurney
and they would never be able to beat the best GLP'ers.

> A fraction of the hours that some sim drivers practice.

> I could practice a famous violin concerto to the point where I could play
it
> backwards, but that wouldn't make me a great musician.

> David G Fisher

> > >If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable
> and
> > >practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.
> > >At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something
> else.

> > Really? How many hours do you think Herr Schumacher has "driven" to be
> > as good as he is?

> > Practice makes perfect - people are no less worthy for doing it.

> > John

by **Richard Bellavan** » Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:16:31

No, not under braking they don't (when I do it right :-). They do
squeal when I start turning, though.

What I meant was, if you're trying to turn and brake at the same
time, and keep going straight ahead, you either:
a) have you brake balance set too far forward
b) are braking too hard

Note that it could be both :-)

Richard.
--
Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc.
Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16
Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16
Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

by **Maxx** » Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:08:53

>>Fangioda?<g>
>>So if you only use 50% of the brake travel, so your tires squeal under braking?

>No, not under braking they don't (when I do it right :-). They do
>squeal when I start turning, though.

Tire squeal under braking is in fact desirable up to the point of
lock up. Optimum braking is when the tires are in a frontal
slide i.e. car travelling at 100mph, tires travelling at 50mph.

It's a little more complicated than that. You only have say
"x" amount of grip with the front tires at rest. If you add
weight to it (i.e. under braking/turn-in) the level of grip
increases. So you have say x+y grip. You can either use
that grip for braking or cornering or a combination of both.
If you want to use 50% for cornering, you only have 50%
for braking. If you try and brake at 55% and corner at 55%
you'll slide. To stop the slide you have to brake less and/
or corner less (apply less lock). Of course to brake less
you obviously need to be travelling slower, so you need
to brake earlier or better.

If your serious about improving your braking, take a look
here : http://www.geocities.com/dmackf2/camera_angles.html
and download the "setup cams". These are special car cams
that allow you to look at the car from front wheels/suspension,
rear wheels/suspension and from the side (the car filling the
whole screen).

Use your normal setup, go out on track, WARM THE TIRES,
then perform your braking manouvre. As soon as you exit
the corner Press F2, select the side on view and watch your
tires. If neither locked, try again, braking harder, keep doing
this until one tire locks, this SHOULD be the front. Take
the Bias back 1%, try again, keep going until the rear locks
first. Then move it 1% or preferably 2% forward.

Ideally you should try this on a flat approach to a corner, i.e.
Silv/Monza but be aware that braking uphill/downhill will
alter the balance slightly, as will braking whilst the car is
side weighted (i.e. you've just exited a corner before i.e.
Zandy)

Maxx

by **Herbert Pohl** » Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:44:08

>It's a little more complicated than that. You only have say
>"x" amount of grip with the front tires at rest. If you add
>weight to it (i.e. under braking/turn-in) the level of grip
>increases. So you have say x+y grip. You can either use
>that grip for braking or cornering or a combination of both.
>If you want to use 50% for cornering, you only have 50%
>for braking. If you try and brake at 55% and corner at 55%
>you'll slide. To stop the slide you have to brake less and/
>or corner less (apply less lock). Of course to brake less
>you obviously need to be travelling slower, so you need
>to brake earlier or better.

Isn't it a little more complicated than that?
I guess (correct me if I'm wrong) it's force vectors
on the road-surface.
Ok, if you have 100 % used for braking, the is nothing
left for turning.
But if you use only 90%, there is about 40% of maximum
turning already available (sqrt(1 - 0.9*0.9))
If you use only 50% braking, you get approx. 85% of
max cornering. (sqrt(1 - 0.5*0.5))

And probably it's still more complicated than that :)

Of course, it's always coming to the same conclusion:
You have to brake less to be able to turn harder - or
the other way round..

Calis

by **Eldre** » Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:01:30

>>Fangioda?<g>
>>So if you only use 50% of the brake travel, so your tires squeal under
>braking?

>No, not under braking they don't (when I do it right :-). They do
>squeal when I start turning, though.

>What I meant was, if you're trying to turn and brake at the same
>time, and keep going straight ahead, you either:
> a) have you brake balance set too far forward
> b) are braking too hard

>Note that it could be both :-)

Probably braking too hard. I had someone tell me I was locking the brakes too
much. Even when I'm not trying to... :(
It seems I do it all the time now. I've tried re-calibrating, to no effect.
It seems the brakes either have no effect, or lock up. No in-between. I've
also had issues with the gas pedal. There's something a bit weird in my
system, I think...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Brett C. Camma** » Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:47:34

I used to lock them a lot more before I realized that "Tire Texture"
should be one of the very *last* graphic options I should turn off
when having FPS problems. Huge difference being able to observe when
at least one or both of the fronts have locked.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack

(remove the DOTs from my return address to reply privately)

by **Eldre** » Fri, 02 Feb 2001 01:47:20

>>Probably braking too hard. I had someone tell me I was locking the brakes
>too
>>much. Even when I'm not trying to... :(

>I used to lock them a lot more before I realized that "Tire Texture"
>should be one of the very *last* graphic options I should turn off
>when having FPS problems. Huge difference being able to observe when
>at least one or both of the fronts have locked.

That's one of the options I've left off - for that very reason. I can SEE the
tires locking, I just can't keep from DOING it... If they don't lock, the
brakes don't seem to work. There's no in-between...:(

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

rec.autos.simulators

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!

Thats it... GPL has just buggered the hell out of me!!!