| I've looked at my laps with both ReplayAnalyzer and GPLDump. I
also just
| compared a Kyalami lap from Alison. With few exceptions, all I
see is that I
| brake earlier, and accelerate later. I'm not understanding how
that helps me
| get faster, because I can't brake any later, or accelerate any
earlier... What
| am I missing here?
Er...talent, maybe? ;)
Hmmm... your F1CS2000 tip helped, thanks for that, so I'll let you get
away with this one this time.
Next time your ass is mine again! (figurely speaking!)
Andre
You CAN brake later Eldred! Use the famous trailbraking technique..
1) Brake a little bit later than normal.
2) Normally there would be no way now to keep the car on the road,
unless:
3) You don't release the brakes all the way when you enter a corner,
but you keep pressing the brakes just a -little bit-
4) This does 2 things: you continue braking, hence you can still take
the normally even when you braked later, and secondly, when you press
the brakes -a little bit- this also helps the car turning in.
Parabolica at Monza is an excellent place to practice this. I guess
you normally brake when you are near the sign on you left?
Well, download a fast replay and see where these guys brake.
When you're exiting Para, try how far you can press the throttle
without losing the rear. If you can add just a little bit more
throttle, you will can a couple of 1/10s since you take this speed all
the way with you to the next corner.
When exiting Para, you'll notice that the car is turning to the right
if you start to hit the throttle. For me it helps to steer just a
lttle bit to the left so I can give more gas.
Andre
What Tim said. I think mental attitude is most of it. Normally, I'm not
very fast, but occasionally I find myself "in the Zone" (as real-world
athletes say) and start going like stink without any conscious effort.
Finding yer muse is the hard part (or yer mews, if you've had a few).
--Steve Smith
> First, get rid of the "***ed" attitude. that alone is probably causing
> you to lose some time. You end up going out on the track trying to make up
> that couple seconds and it is killing you. I do the same :-) What I do now
> is to just simply go on track and try to run some comfortable laps without
> pushing the car. Eventually you just end up getting fater and faster each
> day. I rarely adjust my setups (downloaded), just get to know the track
more
> and more and picking down tose lap times. Can't say Im within 2 seconds of
> the hot-lappers either, but I do well in the league I am running.
> Second, your equipment will make a big difference. The faster the PC the
> more accurate you can be with braking, turning, error corrections, etc.
The
> faster you are with htose things, the better/faster you are going to go. A
> good wheel/pedal combo makes a huge difference in control over your
vehicle.
> Third, download some replays. I have learned more about my lack of speeds
by
> watching my competitors either in a replay or behind him/her on the track.
> Where they brake later and how, where they get through the turns faster
and
> so on. I find myself slower in some turns but faster in others, and that
may
> be directly related to the setup.
> Fourth, setup. I like very soft setups (probably because I come with more
of
> the Nascar related background) then most. They stick better but aren't as
> responsive. Forces me to run a little higher ride height, but I like that
> too. I also like big camber setups and nice even gearing. If I can work
out
> a good (not spectacular) handling car then I can make up for the
difference
> in driving (let me retain this lie to myself guys, its the only thing
> keeping me up front)
> I have had GPL since release in '98, but never really got around to any
> serious racing in it 'till just the past 2 months. I have always enjoyed
GPL
> just didnt want to invest the amount of time it took to create the setups
> (plus I suck at setup creation). So I downloaded Allison Hine's F2 Ferrari
> setups and soon found myself running better then her own times that she
> lists with her setups. I then downloaded a few other's setups and found a
> set that matches my style a bit more and now am able to run in the lead
pack
> at most any track that our league visits. I have decided to stick with the
> F2 cars for pure enjoyment though, less HP, closer racing, and you can
> really throw the car around and have a blast doing it.
> : I'm going absolutely mental here,
> : I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at a
> : loss.
> :
> : Yes, like everyone I'm gradually knocking tenths off here and there.
> : On VROC the best drivers are about 1-2 seconds max. off my best times at
> : say, Monza...
> : I'm no great driver but I'm not terrible (in real life too). I get a
> seconds
> : advantage for good sim drivers (I get that with all sims!), 2 seconds is
a
> : lot of time, but the top guys probably will outdo me by this in a good
> : hotlap in most sims...
> : But, *** me If I know how to get anything closer to the 4-5 second
gap
> : that top lads have opened up on a regular short circuit. 2 minutes at
the
> : 'ring... and various other unbelievable times after owning it from
> (almost)
> : day 1!
> :
> : Forget about a "How do I go quicker?" post, I ant to know what sort of
> : virtual rocked fuel are Monza 1.26's filling there Lotii tanks with?
> :
> : I don't get it, GPL is the only sim that I have seen guys pulling away
at
> : such a rate from the regular racers without a perf. editor being
> released...
> : this is madness!
> :
> : If I don't get, Perhaps I'll get the dog to bury the CD... any better
> ideas?
> : :-)
> :
> :
> What Tim said. I think mental attitude is most of it. Normally, I'm not
> very fast, but occasionally I find myself "in the Zone" (as real-world
> athletes say) and start going like stink without any conscious effort.
> Finding yer muse is the hard part (or yer mews, if you've had a few).
> --Steve Smith
> > Here is my advice:
> > First, get rid of the "***ed" attitude. that alone is probably
causing
> > you to lose some time. You end up going out on the track trying to make
up
> > that couple seconds and it is killing you. I do the same :-) What I do
now
> > is to just simply go on track and try to run some comfortable laps
without
> > pushing the car. Eventually you just end up getting fater and faster
each
> > day. I rarely adjust my setups (downloaded), just get to know the track
> more
> > and more and picking down tose lap times. Can't say Im within 2 seconds
of
> > the hot-lappers either, but I do well in the league I am running.
> > Second, your equipment will make a big difference. The faster the PC the
> > more accurate you can be with braking, turning, error corrections, etc.
> The
> > faster you are with htose things, the better/faster you are going to go.
A
> > good wheel/pedal combo makes a huge difference in control over your
> vehicle.
> > Third, download some replays. I have learned more about my lack of
speeds
> by
> > watching my competitors either in a replay or behind him/her on the
track.
> > Where they brake later and how, where they get through the turns faster
> and
> > so on. I find myself slower in some turns but faster in others, and that
> may
> > be directly related to the setup.
> > Fourth, setup. I like very soft setups (probably because I come with
more
> of
> > the Nascar related background) then most. They stick better but aren't
as
> > responsive. Forces me to run a little higher ride height, but I like
that
> > too. I also like big camber setups and nice even gearing. If I can work
> out
> > a good (not spectacular) handling car then I can make up for the
> difference
> > in driving (let me retain this lie to myself guys, its the only thing
> > keeping me up front)
> > I have had GPL since release in '98, but never really got around to any
> > serious racing in it 'till just the past 2 months. I have always enjoyed
> GPL
> > just didnt want to invest the amount of time it took to create the
setups
> > (plus I suck at setup creation). So I downloaded Allison Hine's F2
Ferrari
> > setups and soon found myself running better then her own times that she
> > lists with her setups. I then downloaded a few other's setups and found
a
> > set that matches my style a bit more and now am able to run in the lead
> pack
> > at most any track that our league visits. I have decided to stick with
the
> > F2 cars for pure enjoyment though, less HP, closer racing, and you can
> > really throw the car around and have a blast doing it.
> > : I'm going absolutely mental here,
> > : I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at
a
> > : loss.
> > :
> > : Yes, like everyone I'm gradually knocking tenths off here and there.
> > : On VROC the best drivers are about 1-2 seconds max. off my best times
at
> > : say, Monza...
> > : I'm no great driver but I'm not terrible (in real life too). I get a
> > seconds
> > : advantage for good sim drivers (I get that with all sims!), 2 seconds
is
> a
> > : lot of time, but the top guys probably will outdo me by this in a good
> > : hotlap in most sims...
> > : But, *** me If I know how to get anything closer to the 4-5 second
> gap
> > : that top lads have opened up on a regular short circuit. 2 minutes at
> the
> > : 'ring... and various other unbelievable times after owning it from
> > (almost)
> > : day 1!
> > :
> > : Forget about a "How do I go quicker?" post, I ant to know what sort of
> > : virtual rocked fuel are Monza 1.26's filling there Lotii tanks with?
> > :
> > : I don't get it, GPL is the only sim that I have seen guys pulling away
> at
> > : such a rate from the regular racers without a perf. editor being
> > released...
> > : this is madness!
> > :
> > : If I don't get, Perhaps I'll get the dog to bury the CD... any better
> > ideas?
> > : :-)
> > :
> > :
Tim,
No, it's not quite as straightforward as that. I posted quite a long
reply to a post on a similar subject. It was either so good it
astounded everyone, or so bad they thought .. what the hell
and carried on with whatever they are doing, as it stopped
the thread dead.
Here it is again anyway.
Maxx
[posted to r.a.s. 16.01.01 in response to a thread :]
Re: Do real race car drivers stay on the throttle when Braking ? NO!
Well, I think it's very clear that you can do some things in GPL that
a) wouldn't work in real-life and b) if they did would have major
impact on tire adn brake wear.
Your definition of trail-braking is perfect, however, to trail-brake
into a fast (>80mph) corner you must have some gas on so as
to keep the rears from going really light, losing traction and
sending the car into oversteer.
I'm not sure I fully understand that. Certainly you are not altering
the brake bias, that is fixed in GPL Most formula cars in real-life
do have***pit brake-bias adjusters however.
What you are doing by providing power to the rear wheels whilst
braking is altering the weight balance under braking. If the weight
of the car stayed as it was at rest with more weight over the
rear tires you would set brake balance more rearward. You may
add a few extra clicks rearward as well as you have a greater
contact patch at the rear.
Howver, under throttle off braking the weight is shifted dramatically
foward, so we need to give the brakes a more forward bias, plus it
is always preferable for fronts to lose traction fractionally before
rears (although we don't want either of course).
This means we are braking much more with our skinny frint-tyres
than the wide rears. By providing power to the rears we shift the
weight balance under braking more rearward, hence we need to move
our brake balance more rearward to compensate.
We in effect get a greater braking force which, although it has
to brake more (as we are still pushing the car forward with
power) does in fact provide overall, a greater degree of
retardation. Theres a whole load of factors that go into this, but
GPL cars would I suspect, by nature of their realtively poor brake
performance and disparity between front and rear tire contact patches,
benefit greatly from this.
I should stress that we are talking partial throttle here, probably no
more than 25% as suggested in another post.
I've used this myself in single seaters, specifically Formual Ford,
Vauxhall Junior and Vauxhall Lotus but more for it's other benefit
of stabilising the car under heavy braking. With very little weight
on the rears any inblance in the car is likely to "wag the tail".
Especially noticable on the FF/FVJ as these where wingless
car (as GPL of course). The FVLs where winged cars and I
probably didn't need to do this, but perhaps did it out of habit
The lower the cars CoG (centre of gravity) the less of a problem
this forward movement of weight is under heavy braking (I'm sure
theres a formula for this) so with aerodynamic, very low sling modern
formula cars I doubt this is an issue.
It has an added benefit in GPL, assuming you left-foot brake
(the above was done using heel & toe) in that it allows you to fine
tune your corner entry speed a little better. If you do brake with
a little gas, if you brake a little late you can come off (the gas)
just before the turn-in point and get a little extra retardation, thus
still make the corner cleanly. If you brake a little early you can
give it a little more gas, keeping you speed a little higher so as
the enter the corner at the optimum speed.
This is MUCH more preferable to coming off the brake earlier
or backing off the brake as a) it's more difficult to do and
b) you'll take weight away from the front which will compromise
front-end grip, which you need for corner entry, so you'll wash-out
Argh! this has turned into another lecture, I knew it was fatal
to start responding.
In Summary, YES gas+brake is used in real life and B) I do
think (but don't know) that the GPL Physics engine is flawed
in the way it responds to very heavy simultaneous use of
gas + brake.
Oops theres more :
See above. Brake fade would be really interesting.
What Cars pez? where?
Maxx
> > I'm going absolutely mental here,
> > I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at a
> > loss.
> Everything the other guys said. Plus: download GPL Dump, insert one of
those
> alien hot shoe replays, insert a replay of your own and look at the
> resulting graph. You'll see EXACTLY where you lose time. Very educational.
> It's not going to help you make up 4 or 5 seconds, but at least you won't
be
> at a loss anymore.
I can get a newbie taking advice and gradually building up pace but I've had
it from day one and have hit a brick wall... I've gone beyond practice
practice, if GPL had frequent flyer miles I'm be in the Bahama's right now
:-)
> >> I'm going absolutely mental here,
> >> I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at
a
> >> loss.
> >Everything the other guys said. Plus: download GPL Dump, insert one of
those
> >alien hot shoe replays, insert a replay of your own and look at the
> >resulting graph. You'll see EXACTLY where you lose time. Very
educational.
> >It's not going to help you make up 4 or 5 seconds, but at least you won't
be
> >at a loss anymore.
> >Bye,
> >Leo
> I've looked at my laps with both ReplayAnalyzer and GPLDump. I also just
> compared a Kyalami lap from Alison. With few exceptions, all I see is
that I
> brake earlier, and accelerate later. I'm not understanding how that helps
me
> get faster, because I can't brake any later, or accelerate any earlier...
What
> am I missing here?
> GraDee,
> >Forget about a "How do I go quicker?" post, I ant to know what sort of
> >virtual rocked fuel are Monza 1.26's filling there Lotii tanks with?
> A "How to go quicker post".
> I know you said forget them but have you ever been taught how to drive
> a real race car? If you got a job drivin race cars for real how close
> do you think you'd be to the really quick guys? How long would it take
> you to get within 4-5 secs of them?
> Take a loko here http://users.bart.nl/~hansvd/school/ it may help you
> as it has helped others.
That's what annoys me about GPL, I'm not a newbie to sims, or real racing, I
am not that far behind in any other sim and after 3 years of practice I've
hit a brick wall...
I must be doing something very fundamental wrong... Of course my Driving
style could improve but i'm not talking tenths, after tons of practice and
you are still loosing 3 seconds there is something very wrong that basic
practice can't sort... I'm stumped.
I use hotlap replays to get an idea of line and gearing but I know I have NO
way of matching the entry and exit speeds. Line is the key - no matter how
good you get at braking if you're off line you're not going to get through
fast.
Rob (who at -3.93 is still 83 seconds slower than Greger Huttu and never
going to get much closer :)
Marty
> At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something else.
> David G Fisher
> > I'm going absolutely mental here,
> > I get this whole practice, practice practice idea... but I'm really at a
> > loss.
> > Yes, like everyone I'm gradually knocking tenths off here and there.
> > On VROC the best drivers are about 1-2 seconds max. off my best times at
> > say, Monza...
> > I'm no great driver but I'm not terrible (in real life too). I get a
> seconds
> > advantage for good sim drivers (I get that with all sims!), 2 seconds is a
> > lot of time, but the top guys probably will outdo me by this in a good
> > hotlap in most sims...
> > But, *** me If I know how to get anything closer to the 4-5 second gap
> > that top lads have opened up on a regular short circuit. 2 minutes at the
> > 'ring... and various other unbelievable times after owning it from
> (almost)
> > day 1!
> > Forget about a "How do I go quicker?" post, I ant to know what sort of
> > virtual rocked fuel are Monza 1.26's filling there Lotii tanks with?
> > I don't get it, GPL is the only sim that I have seen guys pulling away at
> > such a rate from the regular racers without a perf. editor being
> released...
> > this is madness!
> > If I don't get, Perhaps I'll get the dog to bury the CD... any better
> ideas?
> > :-)
> Marty
> > If you really want to close the gap, you'll have to do the unimaginable
and
> > practice the hundreds and even thousands of hours as some do.
> > At that point though, "driving" has long been replaced with something
After running GPL for 2 years, I am only an "average" driver with a
GPLrank of -12. I was never a "natural talent" and had to work hard
on my driving to get to this point. At first i thought, "Ahh it must be
my underpowered PC, or my wheel isn't accurate enough", but after
all this time I can only come to the conclusion that I am not naturally
fast. I try hotlapper setups but I can't drive them because I am all
over the road and crash often.... why?... because I don't drive in the
same way that the hotlappers do. If I sat at their PC, with their setup
and their posture and their wheel and pedals would i be as fast as
them? No. We drive in different ways, and their way is faster than
mine!!! Could I adapt my technique until it matched the hotlappers
techinique? Well, I tried, but after many months it still didn't seem
natural and I still couldn't be consistent. Yes, I managed to knock a
few tenths off a few laptimes, but I couldn't RACE properly, because
it wasn't "instinctive" or "comfortable". And, I never got close to their
fastest times.
When I watch a really fast lap replay, I notice that to get those times
you have to be on the "limit" ALL the way round the track. EVERY
corner must be taken at the optimal speed. This is the ONLY way to
be the fastest and I cannot do it. I will often make mistakes and
lose the car on the limit. This is because their limit is faster than mine.
I practice as much as I can but my limit is still lower than theirs.
"Know your limits"
My solution?? - I drive within MY limits, and spend time making setups
that feel comfortable to ME, whilst keeping me fast enough to be happy.
My cars understeer far too much in comparison to the fast guys, or I have
to brake earlier than them, but I keep it on the track and usually finish in
the top 6.
Exactly how did I do this? Well I took hotlapper setups and "dumbed them
down" until I could drive them consistently and comfortably. This may mean
making the steering ratio higher so the wheel is less twitchy. The car is
easier to drive but harder to recover from a spin, so I then dumb down the
handling so the car doesnt want to spin as much. Or I learn how to drive
a twitchy setup safely, by staying well within the limits and never giving
the car the opportunity to get into a slide.. okay, its slower, but it keeps
me on the track and in the race. I learn to drive my (slower) setup using
ALL racing lines on a circuit, lapping both ON the racing line, and
practising driving OFF the racing line in each corner, so I don't get caught
out when I'm fighting with another car. If I can do 11 laps of monza doing
1:29s and staying on the track, I can beat a car who runs 1:28s and spins
once or twice.
So to sum up, since I accepted that I would never be the fastest, I have
had to make the most of what I have to work with. A lot of people would
say that this is NOT a winners attitude, but the attitude of a loser.
In REAL racing this is probably true, as I wouldn't be fast enough for
a racing team to keep me employed. But, in sim racing it means
I win a few, I lose a few and I do well in a lot of races, but most
importantly, I am HAPPY!
All the best,
Lol SpeedFreek
(UKGPL league admin and Division 2 driver)
UKGPL http://www.ukgpl.com
GPL Rank: -12.15 107% Average: 104.434%
http://www.speedfreek.clubferrari.com
<SNIP>
Eldred,
Your K6-3 system is really hurting you here -- when I upgraded to my
current Duron 750 system, I was ASTOUNDED at how much more responsive
EVERYTHING was. With my K6-2 500 system I got a SOLID 36 fps in GPL
when hot lapping (and similar fps everywhere else except during
starts), but even so, the difference in throttle and steering
responsiveness with my Duron system was absolutely, totally amazing in
comparison. I was using a PDPI L4 game card in my K6-2 system, and I'm
now simply using the on-board game and sound ports on my Duron
motherboard, and the Duron system is even MORE responsive and stable
than the K6-2/PDPI combination. This tells me that even though I was
getting 36 fps, there were still aspects of the GPL game engine that
still weren't really running optimally on the K6-2 system.
With your current system, you might not be able to brake any later or
accelerate any earlier, but that may be a limitation of your hardware.
Just my $0.02.
-- JB
F1CS2K Rank 82.679
http://f1cs2krank.dhs.org/
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