rec.autos.simulators

by **Eldre** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:40:16

Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing their
argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing the
resolution:

Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the yellow,
Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the same
to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch dropped
to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as
much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted John a
couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No damage,
except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high in T1,
Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a
problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver is
sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it that
way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD...

Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped out
to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no fault
either way - OOTRD.

The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under
yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see the big
deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not worried
about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained some
spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than would
be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going at
about the same speed.

I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his
'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any track.
The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion. Shit
happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping John's
car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments
made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest of
the race, and may have clouded later incidents.
Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after next
week's race.

Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think that's
the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the best I
can. So be it... :-(

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank:+8.09
N2002 Rank:+22.329

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **grubba** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:14:54

Well, uhm, Im sorry about causing Mitch to slow and get the first hit. When
the yellow came out, I started to gradually slow down while being careful
not to pass anyone yet make it to the flag safely. Since my name was
mentioned a couple of times , i can not help but feel bad about these
incidents.
grub

by **Bamada** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:08:36

Well I sure don't envy your job Eldred. I respect you for taking the inititive
to rule though. I do know Mitch apologized and took responsibility for what
happened between he and I and that was good enough for me. However I also
support any rules and sanctions that you set as you see fit. I have never known
you to be anything other than fair and open minded as well as a "laid back
racer". BTW,,,can you suspend me for this week's race <g>
Dan

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:21:48

Had it not been for her attitude towards me in the past nothing would have
ever come of this. A person is only going to be called "stupid" so many
times before all hell breaks loose. When she passed me under yellow I wasnt
happy but I sure wasnt PO'd. I did make a couple cute type comments (who
are you, Robby Gordon?). I tapped her twice, neither as hard as I would
bump draft at dega :-) It's called making a point without any type of
collateral damage, racers do it all the time! One other note, had it been
anyone else other than me she surely wouldnt have cried like the girl she
is. Prior to the race I just happened to read the new rules and passing
under yellow was on the list. It
took me quite a few laps behind her slowness to finally root my way around
her, and she wasnt at all happy either as she faught me tooth and nail. I
do finally get around her then out comes yellow and she repasses me, would
anyone be happy? At the restart I thought she was giving me the spot back
then she
commences to try to wreck us both and nearly did. Brian did get caught up
though, sadly. That's when I went ballistic.

Last message on this topic.

Mitch

by **jon** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:27:29

One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line under yellow,
I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off in speed.
Should we maintain racing speed back to the line?

by **Brian Oste** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:30:49

I think we need a clarification about "slowing when the caution comes
out" and the "Gentlemens agreement". When the caution comes out it
does not mean to slam on your breaks or even, IMO, lifting all the way
off. It means hold your position, and let up slightly. Basically,
when the caution comes out don't continue to try and make that lap
your hot lap of the race. I think people dramatically slowing as soon
as the yellow waves can cause as much problems as racing back to the
line like it was the last lap. Also, I personally don't have a
problem with lappers trying to get a lap back as long as they can do
it safely.

Speaking of lap down cars. Can we have double file restarts enabled.
If you get a lap down under single file, you almost have to race back
to the line if you have any hope of ever getting a lap back. I also
found myself racing much more aggressively under green because I HAD
to gain track position on the lead lap cars if I was ever going to
work my way back on to the lead lap. With double file, I can come in
and get new tires and be assured I will be close to the front of the
re-start line (if early on and most are on the lead lap). With fresh
tires and starting on the inside, lap down cars will have a much
better opportunity to get a lap back.

Double file may have been a problem at Darlington, but at California
it should not be any more of a problem than single file.

Brian Oster

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:14:54 -0400, "grubbat"

>Well, uhm, Im sorry about causing Mitch to slow and get the first hit. When
>the yellow came out, I started to gradually slow down while being careful
>not to pass anyone yet make it to the flag safely. Since my name was
>mentioned a couple of times , i can not help but feel bad about these
>incidents.
>grub

>> Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing
>their
>> argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing
>the
>> resolution:

>> Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the
>yellow,
>> Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the
>same
>> to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch
>dropped
>> to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as
>> much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted
>John a
>> couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No
>damage,
>> except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high
>in T1,
>> Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a
>> problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver
>is
>> sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it
>that
>> way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD...

>> Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped
>out
>> to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no
>fault
>> either way - OOTRD.

>> The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under
>> yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see
>the big
>> deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not
>worried
>> about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained
>some
>> spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than
>would
>> be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going
>at
>> about the same speed.

>> I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his
>> 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any
>track.
>> The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion.
>Shit
>> happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping
>John's
>> car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments
>> made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest
>of
>> the race, and may have clouded later incidents.
>> Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after
>next
>> week's race.

>> Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think
>that's
>> the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the
>best I
>> can. So be it... :-(

>> Eldred
>> --
>> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
>> GPLRank:+8.09
>> N2002 Rank:+22.329

>> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **John Simmon** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:14:44

You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch...

--
=========================================================
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http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2
RASCAR Roster
http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar
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http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
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=========================================================

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:57:37

Well, one mo...

I thought you killfiled me? LOL Youre just a glutton for punishment eh?
Dam squids, no spines and very short VBG... Ft. Sam is quite nice in the
summer..

And a right and a left....

Mitch

by **Ryan** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:02:08

Jeez guys, give it up. It's a GAME.

Ryan

> Well, one mo...

> I thought you killfiled me? LOL Youre just a glutton for punishment eh?
> Dam squids, no spines and very short VBG... Ft. Sam is quite nice in the
> summer..

> And a right and a left....

> Mitch

> > You just don't know when to quit, do ya Mitch...

> > --

by **Jan Verschuere** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:35:16

Don't be naive...

Jan. ;-)
=---

by **Gerald Moo** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:47:43

Yes, like Brian said, just quit trying to pass and stop trying to
defend. The race leader kind of sets the pace here. I recommend
backing off just enough so that you are well within your traction
limits in case you have to make evasive actions. 5-10 mph should be
plenty. If positions get swapped, try to sort it out after the
restart. If somebody really takes advantage maybe you can take it up
with Eldred.

The only reason to slow down is to fall in with the pace car, or to
avoid hitting something. Always be ready to slow down.

Gerald

> One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line under yellow,
> I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off in speed.
> Should we maintain racing speed back to the line?

> > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing
> their
> > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing
> the
> > resolution:

> > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the
> yellow,
> > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does the
> same
> > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch
> dropped
> > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not as
> > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted
> John a
> > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No
> damage,
> > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high
> in T1,
> > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause a
> > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each driver
> is
> > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it
> that
> > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD...

> > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car warped
> out
> > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no
> fault
> > either way - OOTRD.

> > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under
> > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see
> the big
> > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not
> worried
> > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained
> some
> > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than
> would
> > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept going
> at
> > about the same speed.

> > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were his
> > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any
> track.
> > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my opinion.
> Shit
> > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping
> John's
> > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments
> > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the rest
> of
> > the race, and may have clouded later incidents.
> > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after
> next
> > week's race.

> > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think
> that's
> > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the
> best I
> > can. So be it... :-(

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank:+8.09
> > N2002 Rank:+22.329

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **jon** » Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:29:44

Ahh. Hadn't got that post yet.
I was wonderin if I was the only one who noticed a problem there...

> Yes, like Brian said, just quit trying to pass and stop trying to
> defend. The race leader kind of sets the pace here. I recommend
> backing off just enough so that you are well within your traction
> limits in case you have to make evasive actions. 5-10 mph should be
> plenty. If positions get swapped, try to sort it out after the
> restart. If somebody really takes advantage maybe you can take it up
> with Eldred.

> The only reason to slow down is to fall in with the pace car, or to
> avoid hitting something. Always be ready to slow down.

> Gerald

- Show quoted text -

> > One thing I have noticed. With the no racing back to the line under
yellow,
> > I have nearly rear the car ahead of me due to a sudden drop off in
speed.
> > Should we maintain racing speed back to the line?

> > > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing
> > their
> > > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also
airing
> > the
> > > resolution:

> > > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take
the
> > yellow,
> > > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does
the
> > same
> > > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but
Mitch
> > dropped
> > > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but
not as
> > > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted
> > John a
> > > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No
> > damage,
> > > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted
high
> > in T1,
> > > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to
cause a
> > > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each
driver
> > is
> > > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see
it
> > that
> > > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD...

> > > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car
warped
> > out
> > > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again,
no
> > fault
> > > either way - OOTRD.

> > > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot
under
> > > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't
see
> > the big
> > > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely
not
> > worried
> > > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I
gained
> > some
> > > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more
than
> > would
> > > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept
going
> > at
> > > about the same speed.

> > > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were
his
> > > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any
> > track.
> > > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my
opinion.
> > Shit
> > > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's
tappping
> > John's
> > > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory.
Comments
> > > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the
rest
> > of
> > > the race, and may have clouded later incidents.
> > > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again
after
> > next
> > > week's race.

> > > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think
> > that's
> > > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do
the
> > best I
> > > can. So be it... :-(

> > > Eldred
> > > --
> > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > > GPLRank:+8.09
> > > N2002 Rank:+22.329

> > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **jon** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:23:30

Although I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post and the point
you are making, I must propose an alternate theory with regards to what
online racing is.

Rather than being merely a game, perhaps it is an *escape from this
reality*. What if, by immersing yourself in your favorite sim, you are
transported to *a different dimension*. Mathematical models indicate that
our universe could have many more dimensions than was previously thought. It
could be argued that sim racing has opened a door to one of these
dimensions.

Perhaps we not viewing a disagreement over a game, but a universe much
younger than the one we presently know. Maybe what we are seeing here is the
incredible release of energy one would expect to see when matter and
antimatter meet.

Gentlemen, we may very well have inadvertently stumbled upon the one thing
man has wondered about since he first raised his eyes toward the night sky .
. . . the beginning of time.

<sigh> Where the hell is Stephen Hawkings when you really need him.....

by **Tom Pabs** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:51:37

Just My Two Cents:

1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts"
available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to make the
judgment call.
2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race suspension is
very lenient, IMHO.
3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" are special
rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provide except
prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realistic restart
situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" just introduces
a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where
newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in
respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim
drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for
RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the race are
not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having fun with
some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special rules
for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish is to
slow their learning curve.
5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" or doing
the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......for standing
up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now.

Regards,

Tom

by **Schoone** » Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:58:38

There is one solution for Retaliation type situations - lifetime ban. It
happened once in our league and the guy was gone that day and is not
permitted back. Sure we all make mistakes but this has no place in sim
racing IMHO.
In another league I was in a similar event went without any follow-up and
helped tear the league apart.

> Just My Two Cents:

> 1. I think the analysis was a fair judgment......of the best "facts"
> available (the server's replay).....by the best person available to make
the
> judgment call.
> 2. "Retaliation" is unacceptable in all forms......a one-race suspension
is
> very lenient, IMHO.
> 3. "No double-file restarts" and "no racing back to the yellow" are
special
> rules designed to "assist" newbies? What assistance does it provide
except
> prevent them from learning how to race (under yellow or in realistic
restart
> situations) properly. Each of these "training wheel rules" just
introduces
> a new set of problems to deal with.....it doesn't prevent problems where
> newbies are concerned (never has, never will). In my opinion, and in
> respect for how difficult learning to race "NASCAR-style" is for new sim
> drivers, there should **not** be any "training wheel" rules adopted for
> RASCAR races. There's no points championship, the "results" of the race
are
> not important. "Learning".....is the only importance....and having fun
with
> some friends, while doing so......is the goal. So, why the special rules
> for newbies? I think the only thing the "special rules" accomplish is to
> slow their learning curve.
> 5. Eldred, you do not ever have to apologize for "making a ruling" or
doing
> the job necessary to admin the RASCAR races. Thank you.......for standing
> up and taking the heat as you have done for many weeks now.

> Regards,

> Tom

> > Since the drivers who were involved didn't have a problem with airing
> their
> > argument/disagreements here, I don't see anything wrong with also airing
> the
> > resolution:

> > Lap 30 - yellow flag comes out. As the drivers come around to take the
> yellow,
> > Mitch has to stand on the brakes to avoid hitting Grubbat. John does
the
> same
> > to avoid hitting Mitch. I don't think there was any contact, but Mitch
> dropped
> > to the flat par of the track and slowed way down. John slowed, but not
as
> > much, so he crossed the line first. During that caution, Mitch punted
> John a
> > couple of times to show his displeasure at John taking the spot. No
> damage,
> > except to the tempers of each driver. On the restart, John drifted high
> in T1,
> > Mitch went to make the pass. They touched slightly, not enough to cause
a
> > problem, but warp and GPL's physics threw John into the wall. Each
driver
> is
> > sure that the other one intentionally wrecked, but I really don't see it
> that
> > way. I don't see it being *either's* fault. OOTRD...

> > Lap 153 - Grubbat drifts high, Mitch goes to pass low. Grub's car
warped
> out
> > to the wall, then back into Mitch, the crashes into the wall. Again, no
> fault
> > either way - OOTRD.

> > The thing I *don't* understand it Mitch's anger at losing the spot under
> > yellow. This was on lap 30 of a 200 lap race. Personally, I don't see
> the big
> > deal. When you're dodging cars during a yellow, you're most likely not
> worried
> > about what position you're in. I lost some spots that way, and I gained
> some
> > spots that way. Also, Mitch was off the track, and slowed down more than
> would
> > be expected. John didn't really RACE to take the spot, he just kept
going
> at
> > about the same speed.

> > I consider Mitch to be a good driver, I don't think the incidents were
his
> > 'fault', and I wouldn't be worried going door-to-door with him at any
> track.
> > The incidents themselves wouldn't even have been a problem in my
opinion.
> Shit
> > happens, and Bristol is known for that kind of thing. Mitch's tappping
> John's
> > car under yellow seems unsportsmanlike to me, and retaliatory. Comments
> > made(by both drivers) during those laps probably carried over to the
rest
> of
> > the race, and may have clouded later incidents.
> > Ruling - 1 race suspension for Mitch. He is welcome to join again after
> next
> > week's race.

> > Yeah, I know - people(on either side) may not be happy. But, I think
> that's
> > the fairest option I have. I'm not getting paid for this, and I do the
> best I
> > can. So be it... :-(

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank:+8.09
> > N2002 Rank:+22.329

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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