rec.autos.simulators

Setup Step by step???

Jonny Hodgso

Setup Step by step???

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 04:57:28


>  I hardly consider myself a 'rookie' in GPL, but I've had SEVERAL races where
> I'm 3-4 seconds off the pace.  This occurs even on tracks that I've run a lot
> of laps on(WG, Silverstone, SPA).
[snip]
> That's my limit - no amount of laps will gain me any more time.  My gas, shift,
> and brake points are set by that time.  Any attempts to change result in
> crashes.  I may gain a tenth here and there, but that's it.  That's what causes
> the frustration - when that set point is SO far off the pace.
> I don't really know how better to explain it, so I'll stop whining now...<g>

Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing
at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition).

I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it
really twelve years?  For about the last six of those I've
been at the top level of club racing, and somewhere below the
50% mark at Regional meetings.

I'm still working on my setups (often exchanging ideas between
the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment
(although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw
more money at it), but I'm not finishing noticeably higher and
I don't really expect to.

Instead, I've just accepted that this is how good I am, and I
enjoy the racing while I'm there.  For me, the key to this is
finding a couple of people who are *really* close to my pace,
so I can just have a good battle with them.  The top guys will
be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I
have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've
enjoyed my day's racing.

This probably ties in with avoiding mixed-skill races - in R/C,
the heats are seeded roughly by ability, and the finals are
sorted based on qualifying so you're always running with people
of a similar pace.  I've shared track space with beginners, and
it's an exercise in patience and knowing how to use the horse-
-power advantage - which you don't have in GPL.

HTH,
Jonny

Jonny Hodgso

Setup Step by step???

by Jonny Hodgso » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:00:04


> When Brock Yates was at Hobart College in Geneva, NY, he and his
> beer-guzzling fraternity brothers discovered that you could create a PIO
> (pilot-induced oscillation) in a 1961 Corvair by spinning the wheel all the
> way in one direction (the Corvair had really slow steering, even for a
> rear-engines car), then take your hands off the wheel, and with judicious
> applications of the throttle, get the steering to see-saw sickeningly from
> lock to lock like something from a Joie Chitwood or a Hellzapoppin show.

I swear the Y-reg Mondeo estate I drove a while back did something
like this on bumpy corners, except without letting go of the
steering wheel... it really made me appreciate my 405!

There really was something very odd about the front end - it felt
very soggy in a straight line, then when you asked it to turn it
rolled a bit before going "Ah - you wanted me to turn in?" and
doing so very abruptly.  Yuk.

Jonny

Ruud Dingeman

Setup Step by step???

by Ruud Dingeman » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:41:05


> Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing
> at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition).

Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have
a ghost of a chance sometimes.

Hey, me too.

Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself.

I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in
some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten
once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up
taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991.

During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and
being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read:
exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former
national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's
what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now.
Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real
one. A tuned one. A professional one.

This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I
jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch
teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to
just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made
all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing
in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away.
Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited
me a lot better.

Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster,
does help put things into perspective.

Regards, Rudy

adsale

Setup Step by step???

by adsale » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 07:43:22


> Eldred, Goy,

> As I said in the book, I think Monza is a terrific place to try different
> setups.  "Our own private test track," Alison called it during the beta
> phase.  We're all intimately familiar with it from zillions of online
> bashes, so consistency shouldn't be an issue.  It's dead simple (one fast
> turn and three slow ones).  And it responds well to tweaks.  The Glen is
> also familiar and simple, but the extreme camber throws a figurative wrench
> into feeling exactly what's going on.  Silverstone is too simple and
> unchallenging, IMO, altho a great place to learn the ropes of online racing
> (or even AI racing, if you're as yet unfamiliar).  Sears (I have 3 different
> versions) may *seem* simple, but I find it almost as tricky in GPL as I do
> in NASCAR (which is to say virtually undriveable)..

> If you just don't "get it" (that is, feel the difference in setups), don't
> expect to be magically faster with *any* setup.  You'll probably have to do
> a bunch of laps until you're fairly consistent (say within a couple of
> tenths per minute) before you can evaluate whether or not you feel
> comfortable driving it, and whether or not it produces any improvement in
> lap times.

> Radical changes (low-50s brake bias, 60/x diffs, really soft shox, really
> stiff springs, etc.) will also throw you off, since they may require you to
> adopt an entirely new driving style.

> If you don't like to fiddle with setups, just find some good basic setups
> like Alison's, and concentrate on your performance on the track instead of
> in the garage.

> It ain't rocket science.  Check that: it IS rocket science!

I sort of agree with you, the reason I discarded Monza as a testing
track is because it doesn't have any real braking zones for a slow
corner, and also because people use asymmetric setups to go really fast
there

I forgot about the camber changes at WG though, good point, get them
right and you're good to go, miss them and you're way off on the times

As for radical setup changes, when you start out, trying to figure out
what a setup change will do to a car, I've always found it better to
make a radical change just to provoke a reaction, see if the car is
reacting the way I believe it should or if it's just my driving, yes, it
may force you to change your driving style to get the best out of it,
but that wasn't my (less than clear) point, if you move the brake
balance back by 20% it's going to be undriveable, pretty much, but you
get a feel for what  moving the brake balance back will do to the
balance of the car under braking, same with any other setup change you
do, make it radical and the car will let you know what you just did

I think we agree on the main point though, if you can't drive
consistently, you're wasting time changing the setup, any setup, bar the
most extreme ones, can be driven consistently by most people, you may be
fast or you may be slow, but you will be consistent if you give it
enough laps

As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just
keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on
the setup

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

Steve Smit

Setup Step by step???

by Steve Smit » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:15:58

Eldred,

What you describe is exactly what's supposed to be happening.  You've found
your "sweet spot" on the track.  Trying to go faster will only frustrate
you.  Now the only trick is to find a league where your "sweet spot" is the
same as yours.  There's no point in lumbering around behind a pack of
aliens.  Nor in shooting off into the distance ahead of a bunch of amateurs.
Find a simpatico group and enjoy!

--Steve



(jason
> moyer) writes:

> >1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online.
> >2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period.

> If I don't run in mixed-skill races, then what's LEFT? :-)
> I realize you're talking mostly about N2002, but the same thing happens in
GPL.
>  I hardly consider myself a 'rookie' in GPL, but I've had SEVERAL races
where
> I'm 3-4 seconds off the pace.  This occurs even on tracks that I've run a
lot
> of laps on(WG, Silverstone, SPA).

> I have a certain speed that I can go on a certain track.  Whether I'm
running
> solo practice laps or in an online race, that speed is the same.  So I
don't
> really *worry* about how fast everyone is, but I'm getting tired of
always(or
> 90% of the time) being the last car running.
> Granted, I could use some more laps in N2002, but I typically hit a wall
> quicker than everyone else.  Meaning, I'll run a bunch of laps at a
track(maybe
> 20-30).  During that time, I'll lower my times to a certain number(say
1:30).
> That's my limit - no amount of laps will gain me any more time.  My gas,
shift,
> and brake points are set by that time.  Any attempts to change result in
> crashes.  I may gain a tenth here and there, but that's it.  That's what
causes
> the frustration - when that set point is SO far off the pace.
> I don't really know how better to explain it, so I'll stop whining
now...<g>

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Steve Smit

Setup Step by step???

by Steve Smit » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:18:49

Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for
running in GPL.  I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase
the car all over the road with the steering wheel.



> > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing
> > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition).

> Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have
> a ghost of a chance sometimes.

> > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it

> Hey, me too.

> > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment
> > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw
> > more money at it),

> Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself.

> I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in
> some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten
> once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up
> taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991.

> During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and
> being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read:
> exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former
> national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's
> what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now.
> Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real
> one. A tuned one. A professional one.

> This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I
> jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch
> teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to
> just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made
> all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing
> in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away.
> Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited
> me a lot better.

> > so I can just have a good battle with them.  The top guys will
> > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I
> > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've
> > enjoyed my day's racing.

> Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster,
> does help put things into perspective.

> Regards, Rudy

grubba

Setup Step by step???

by grubba » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:39:36

Eldred,
If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running with
the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you. Then
study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey.
Kinda like being the hunter instead of the hunted! :) . You will always be
trying to find the best line, when they are slowing down, turning, and
moving away. Study your competition very closely. This will help you get out
of your current pattern at that track and will help you over time. Also, a
positive and can-do attitude is a must.  Following the best car at a new
track helped me in real life. Fastest way to learn. !!
Oh, one more thing. In racing, everything is always changing. No constants.
Nothing linear. Lots of interaction between and within factors. The only
thing that must remain constant is your desire to learn and change faster
than the competition.!!!
grub


> Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for
> running in GPL.  I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase
> the car all over the road with the steering wheel.




> > > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing
> > > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition).

> > Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually have
> > a ghost of a chance sometimes.

> > > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it

> > Hey, me too.

> > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment
> > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw
> > > more money at it),

> > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself.

> > I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part in
> > some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten
> > once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended up
> > taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991.

> > During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and
> > being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read:
> > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our former
> > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor (that's
> > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now.
> > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real
> > one. A tuned one. A professional one.

> > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards. I
> > jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch
> > teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access to
> > just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made
> > all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance racing
> > in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away.
> > Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that suited
> > me a lot better.

> > > so I can just have a good battle with them.  The top guys will
> > > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I
> > > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've
> > > enjoyed my day's racing.

> > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster,
> > does help put things into perspective.

> > Regards, Rudy

Ruud Dingeman

Setup Step by step???

by Ruud Dingeman » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:13:15


> Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for
> running in GPL.  I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me chase
> the car all over the road with the steering wheel.

Ah - but there is, Steve. It's an extraordinary piece of equipment and
you'll know when you've found the way to use it just right. It's located
  right between your ears.   ;)

Regards, Rudy

Eldre

Setup Step by step???

by Eldre » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:14:49



>As you say, pick one track, possibly two to break the monotony, and just
>keep driving until you are consistent, *then* you can start working on
>the setup

I have the consistency part down.  In most of my league races(GPL), I'm usually
near the top for consistency, highest climber, and on-track laps.  In my IICC
league, I scored points in 22 of 23 races I entered(top 12 spots score points).
 I finished 2nd (by 25 points) to a guy who only had 18 starts.  He had 5 wins.
 With scratch results applied, I dropped all the way to 4th.  I completed 910
laps, 40 more than anyone else in the division, and finished on the lead lap in
the first 12 or 13 races.
Consistency I *got*.  Now I need some ***ing SPEED... :-)
If you care<g>, the IICC website is: http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Steve Smit

Setup Step by step???

by Steve Smit » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:22:09

One of the most unrealistic factors abt. GPL (or *almost* any sim), IMO, is
precisely that there is very little of what I would call 'environmental'
changes, the absence of which makes driving a whole bunch easier.  To wit:
nobody ever blows an engine and spills oil all over the track,  'marbles'
never build up off the groove, your tires never 'go away' (as they do in
NASCAR Racing) and neither do your engine nor brakes nor ***, you don't
have to deal with changing weather, nobody ever tells you to slow down and
let Michael Schumacher pass you on the last corner of the last lap, etc.

Following the fastest car out there is a prescription for frustration.  Try
to find somebody as fast as you are...to follow, not to lead.  Improvements
in pb's usually don't happen in leaps & bounds (maybe they do in the
beginning, but rarely after you've plateaued), but getting the adrenaline
pumping in a close race (even in a practice session) will ususally result in
an incremental improvement.  String a few of these together, and you could
take a second or two off your best time.  And give you something to make you
feel good abt. yourself.


> Eldred,
> If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running
with
> the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you.
Then
> study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey.
> Kinda like being the hunter instead of the hunted! :) . You will always be
> trying to find the best line, when they are slowing down, turning, and
> moving away. Study your competition very closely. This will help you get
out
> of your current pattern at that track and will help you over time. Also, a
> positive and can-do attitude is a must.  Following the best car at a new
> track helped me in real life. Fastest way to learn. !!
> Oh, one more thing. In racing, everything is always changing. No
constants.
> Nothing linear. Lots of interaction between and within factors. The only
> thing that must remain constant is your desire to learn and change faster
> than the competition.!!!
> grub



> > Too bad there isn't some magic lump of hardware (like your "anchor") for
> > running in GPL.  I'm happy to find a controller that doesn't make me
chase
> > the car all over the road with the steering wheel.




> > > > Maybe it's just a case of finding the level you're happy racing
> > > > at (read: the right bunch of people / ability of competition).

> > > Hear hear, that's much more fun. You need to know that you actually
have
> > > a ghost of a chance sometimes.

> > > > I've been racing 1/10th R/C off-road now for, oh god, is it

> > > Hey, me too.

> > > > the models and GPL) and I'm keeping up with the equipment
> > > > (although I kid myself sometimes that I'd be quicker if I threw
> > > > more money at it),

> > > Let me tell you: you are *NOT* kidding yourself.

> > > I've driven club R/C races as well, sometimes winning, and took part
in
> > > some national Standard-class championships (ending up in the top ten
> > > once). By that time, I also R/C'd into the Modifieds class, and ended
up
> > > taking part in the unofficial European championship in 1991.

> > > During this event, most of my Dutch teammates were clearly faster, and
> > > being still in school I didn't exactly have a large budget (read:
> > > exceptional equipment). But I happened to sit next to one of our
former
> > > national champions, and he was nice enough to lend me an anchor
(that's
> > > what we call it in Dutch, don't recollect the English term right now.
> > > Anyway, it's the central rotating part of an electric motor). A real
> > > one. A tuned one. A professional one.

> > > This one thing turned my car almost into a fireball, by my standards.
I
> > > jumped way higher into the ratings and passed about half of my Dutch
> > > teammates. I knew I was not any faster in driving, but having access
to
> > > just one extraordinarily tuned piece of equipment from the pro's made
> > > all the difference. That's when I knew I wouldn't stand a chance
racing
> > > in Modifieds without a fairly big budget, and quit almost right away.
> > > Went back to club racing using cheap standard materials, and that
suited
> > > me a lot better.

> > > > so I can just have a good battle with them.  The top guys will
> > > > be an entire lap or more quicker over five minutes, but if I
> > > > have a good fight for pole in the C-final or whatever then I've
> > > > enjoyed my day's racing.

> > > Indeed. And knowing it's not *only* more skill that makes them faster,
> > > does help put things into perspective.

> > > Regards, Rudy

Eldre

Setup Step by step???

by Eldre » Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:21:15



>Eldred,
>If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running with
>the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you. Then
>study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey.

First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.  They
usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything.  Or, I crash trying to
keep the same speeds(even with the same setup).  That's one of the things that
puzzles me.  I can be running the same setup, following in the person's tire
tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit.  Grrrr....

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Uncle Feste

Setup Step by step???

by Uncle Feste » Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:15:58


> First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.  They
> usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything.  Or, I crash trying to
> keep the same speeds(even with the same setup).  That's one of the things that
> puzzles me.  I can be running the same setup, following in the person's tire
> tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit.  Grrrr....

IIRC you also use autoshift, which makes the problem considerably worse...

--

Fester

Richard S Becket

Setup Step by step???

by Richard S Becket » Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:04:45




> >Eldred,
> >If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running
with
> >the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you.
Then
> >study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey.

> First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.  They
> usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything.  Or, I crash
trying to
> keep the same speeds(even with the same setup).  That's one of the things
that
> puzzles me.  I can be running the same setup, following in the person's
tire
> tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit.  Grrrr....

I think PC power makes a difference, too.

R.

Steve Smit

Setup Step by step???

by Steve Smit » Fri, 02 Aug 2002 00:52:02

One of the best things abt. GPL is that it runs great on what nowadays is
just a so-so machine.  When it first came out, everybody was falling on
their swords abt. needing to upgrade to a 400-MHz PII and a Voodoo 3.  By
now, even with all the eye-popping tweaks and add-ons, a 1.2-Ghz Athlon and
a GF2 will do just fine.







> > >Eldred,
> > >If I were to offer advise, it would be keep practicing and try running
> with
> > >the faster guys in practice. Pick the car who is next faster than you.
> Then
> > >study them. Try to watch the fastest car out there and learn your Prey.

> > First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.
They
> > usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything.  Or, I crash
> trying to
> > keep the same speeds(even with the same setup).  That's one of the
things
> that
> > puzzles me.  I can be running the same setup, following in the person's
> tire
> > tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit.  Grrrr....

> I think PC power makes a difference, too.

> R.

Eldre

Setup Step by step???

by Eldre » Fri, 02 Aug 2002 04:13:17


writes:


>> First, I need to be able to keep up for more than one or two turns.  They
>> usually disappear too quickly for me to learn anything.  Or, I crash trying
>to
>> keep the same speeds(even with the same setup).  That's one of the things
>that
>> puzzles me.  I can be running the same setup, following in the person's
>tire
>> tracks, and still get dropped like a bad habit.  Grrrr....

>IIRC you also use autoshift, which makes the problem considerably worse...

Only in N2002.  I've been using manual shift in GPL since the first month I got
it.  I've tried manual shift in my last two N2002 races(Watkins and Las Vegas)
Didn't help.  Even so, it should only help when you have to shift during a
lap(road courses, maybe Pocono).  On ovals, it shouldn't make a difference.

Eldred

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

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