rec.autos.simulators

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:40:08

When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow this
method.
1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
2. adjust gearing
3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a nice
inside to outside progression.
4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little
negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
5. check air pressures again...
6. Sometimes fool with the wings.....
7...NOW I'M LOST>....
There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how those help
me at each individual track.
(fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in GENERAL
this should apply to most road course sims right?)
What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the fast
rebound or lower it?
And ditto for the slow rebound........
<skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
dave henrie

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:50:41

One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C,
and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average
70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the
preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are
too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance -
how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
across the tire.

Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the
brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially
ARB stiffness can help this.

AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto
the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than
you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
track.

Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is
moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application
and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner
entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations,
a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound
damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on
the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient
handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which
really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control
and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

by **Goy Larse** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:40:37

Ok, couple of basic setup rules......

1. springs

The end of the car with the most roll stiffness (springs/roll bars) has
the least grip, i.e, if you "soften" the front end of the car it will
get more grip, and if you stiffen it, it will loose grip, if you stiffen
both ends an equal amount, you will have less overall grip, but the car
will be more responsive

Softer springs = more grip, less responsive
Stiffer springs = less grip, better response

So a "beginner" setup would generally be relatively soft, transitions
won't happen too suddenly and the grip levels will be higher

This all assuming steady state cornering btw

2. Shocks

Shocks hardly come into play at all during steady state cornering, so
once the car is settled into a turn, it doesn't really matter what shock
settings you've got (yes yes I know, simplified)

Where the shocks make a difference, assuming we're on a smooth track of
course, is during the transitional stage, i.e. entering and exiting
turns, where a stiffer shock will give more grip at that end because it
makes the car "settle" quicker, enter steady state cornering faster if
you will, and a car has more grip when it's settled

However, unlike with springs where we generally have only one setting,
with shocks we have two, compression and rebound, and they affect the
handing of the car differently, I always get those mixed up and need to
check my books for reference here so I don't give out wrong info and I
don't have my books at hand, I'll get back to you on those unless some
others chip in

3. Anti Roll Bars

ARB's are a funny thing, on a road car they are one of the best
inventions ever made, while on a race car they tend to be used more as a
quick adjustment tool

The thing is, because of their very nature, they connect the suspension
on one side of the car with the other side, they are hindering a totally
independent movement of the suspension, meaning that when you enter a
corner and the outside suspension is compressed, the ARB is actually
trying to compress the inside wheel as well, and that's no good for the
grip, this is however balanced out with the fact that we get less body
roll for a given set of springs, which is a big advantage again, body
roll isn't exactly something we aim for, so the draw backs of the ARB's
are balanced out with the advantages, to a point

Another big advantage is of course hat ARB's are easily adjustable, and
any decent race car has adjustable ARB's at least at the rear, and
preferably from within the car itself as this means you can adjust the
handling of the car as your tires wear and the fuel load lightens,
unless it's illegal in your racing class of course, but even if it is,
you can adjust the ARB's in a minute or two during practice, takes a bit
longer to change springs, so once you get the springs about right, you
fine tune the handling with the ARB's, same principle there, softer bar
means less roll resistance means more grip at that end

My rule of thumb has always been to use soft ARB's when I run stiff
springs and vice versa, I know it doesn't always work, but as a ground
rule it's not too bad

4.Tires

I'm on more of a shaky ground here as I've never had any fresh racing
tires to play around with on my car, but I believe that the general
thinking here is roughly the same as with the suspension, a softer (less
pressure) tire has a more progressive transient handling and more grip
(assuming we're running within reasonable pressures here), whereas a
harder tire (more pressure) has less roll resistance and gives better
feedback and response, they also generally run cooler as they deflect
less overall and unless you over inflate the tire, it should generally
run cooler, unless you over inflate it of course, in which case you
reduce the contact patch of the tire on the track and certain parts of
the tire (center) will have to do more work and you may over heat it
locally

5. Books

There are a couple of good books on the subject, my fav book is not at
hand and I can't for the life of me remember the name of it or the
author, I'll have to get back on that

How to make your car handle - Fred Puhn
(it's road cars, but the same principle applies)

Tune to Win - Carrol Smith
(Not too thrilled by this one really, but he doesn't disagree with the
other author's I read and he certainly knows about race cars, I just
find his writing style a bit much)

I'm sure Steve Smith has written a couple too, he always seems to have
:-)

If you want to test out some of this, DL Tim McArthur's "Skid Pad" for
N3 and do some testing, or load up a symmetrical setup and try some laps
at an oval, just make sure you differentiate between transitional
cornering and steady state cornering

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Steve Smit** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:44:37

Did you read the book? No help?

by **Steve Smit** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:59:30

Haqsau,

The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same thing
as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or
virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which
are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps,
turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect
with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back
down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end
lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the pavement.
The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as hell
under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined with
stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the GPL
suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

Private lessons available for a fee.

--Steve

> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
> the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C,
> and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average
> 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
> raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the
> preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
> damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are
> too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance -
> how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
> across the tire.

> Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
> tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
> the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the
> brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
> travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
> old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
> causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially
> ARB stiffness can help this.

> AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
> use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto
> the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than
> you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
> useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
> track.

> Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is
> moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
> braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application
> and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner
> entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations,
> a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound
> damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on
> the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient
> handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
> change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
> in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which
> really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
> rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
> higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
> underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control
> and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow
> this
> > method.
> > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> > 2. adjust gearing
> > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a
> nice
> > inside to outside progression.
> > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little
> > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> > 5. check air pressures again...
> > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> > 7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
> those help
> > me at each individual track.
> > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in
> GENERAL
> > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the
> fast
> > rebound or lower it?
> > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> > dave henrie

by **Haqsa** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:14:35

Well, like I said, it's tricky. What I meant by "only in use when the
chassis is moving vertically" is that they only have an effect when
there is vertical movement of the suspension. Poor phrasing in
retrospect, but I was trying to emphasize that if the suspension isn't
in motion the dampers aren't doing anything. Maybe I should have said
"only when the spindles are in motion" or something, I don't know. I
guess the term vertical motion throws some people, but I don't know how
else to describe it - whether pitching, rolling, jouncing, or rebounding
there is vertical motion, as opposed to acceleration, deceleration, and
yawing which are all horizontal motions. So for example the dampers
only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes - after the chassis
has settled they are no longer doing anything, even though you are still
on the brakes. They affect it again, and oppositely, when you lift off
the brakes. I wanted to clarify that because some people have the
impression that you can control understeer during turn entry and exit
with dampers, and that's only partially true - the dampers affect the
car's attitude during initial turn-in, brake lift-off, chassis roll,
accelerator tip-in, and chassis unrolling, but not in between those
points. In between those points the car's attitude is most strongly
governed by springs, bars, brake bias, and differential lock. So there
is a method to determining when to adjust dampers as opposed to those
other things - only adjust the dampers if you are trying to modify the
handling of the vehicle during those transitional phases when the
chassis is in vertical motion.

Concerning tire temps, while it does have something to do with driving
style also, changing the damping will change the tire temps even if you
are careful to maintain the same driving style. Because the dampers
change the transient response of the suspension, they are also changing
the vertical load on the tires during transients. F = ma. Stiffer
bump/softer rebound dampers will raise tire temps by raising the average
vertical load on the tire. Softer bump/stiffer rebound damping
decreases tire temps. Granted, changing dampers only to change tire
temps is a bit tricky, given the number of other things that are
affected. It makes more sense to change the springs usually. But it's
part of the toolkit and it's good to know what the effect is. Tire
temps are a very direct and effective way of determining whether you
have the right amount of suspension compliance for the tire and the
track (provided that you are a smooth driver - if not the temps are
rubbish!).

by **Goy Larse** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:59:13

> 5. Books

> There are a couple of good books on the subject, my fav book is not at
> hand and I can't for the life of me remember the name of it or the
> author, I'll have to get back on that

"Performance handling" (how to make your car handle, techniques for the
1990's) by Don Alexander

This is my bible :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Goy Larse** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:01:21

> Did you read the book? No help?

Which one ? :-)

Seriously Steve, which books have you written on the subject, I feel the
need to add to my personal library and there's a decent Automobilia book
shop an hour's drive from here

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Steve Smit** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:24:03

Haqsau,

"...the dampers only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes...."

Even trickier than that. In re shock 'stagger', if you have the front
jounce settings soft and the rear rebound settings stiff, the rear end will
still be reacting after the front has settled (as the rear hyd. fluid is
still squirting thru those tiny orifices). Still trickier: if you have the
right & left shock values staggered, applying the brakes in a straight line
can make the car turn (pitch+roll=yaw). And that doesn't even begin to
account for what happens to the car's attitude depending on how ***ly
the suspension gets into the ***s. (Nor, in the RW, does it cover the
difference between lo-Hz suspension flex v. hi-Hz movement, which GPL
doesn't model.)

As we both agree: tricky stuff.

--Steve

> Well, like I said, it's tricky. What I meant by "only in use when the
> chassis is moving vertically" is that they only have an effect when
> there is vertical movement of the suspension. Poor phrasing in
> retrospect, but I was trying to emphasize that if the suspension isn't
> in motion the dampers aren't doing anything. Maybe I should have said
> "only when the spindles are in motion" or something, I don't know. I
> guess the term vertical motion throws some people, but I don't know how
> else to describe it - whether pitching, rolling, jouncing, or rebounding
> there is vertical motion, as opposed to acceleration, deceleration, and
> yawing which are all horizontal motions. So for example the dampers
> only affect brake dive when you first hit the brakes - after the chassis
> has settled they are no longer doing anything, even though you are still
> on the brakes. They affect it again, and oppositely, when you lift off
> the brakes. I wanted to clarify that because some people have the
> impression that you can control understeer during turn entry and exit
> with dampers, and that's only partially true - the dampers affect the
> car's attitude during initial turn-in, brake lift-off, chassis roll,
> accelerator tip-in, and chassis unrolling, but not in between those
> points. In between those points the car's attitude is most strongly
> governed by springs, bars, brake bias, and differential lock. So there
> is a method to determining when to adjust dampers as opposed to those
> other things - only adjust the dampers if you are trying to modify the
> handling of the vehicle during those transitional phases when the
> chassis is in vertical motion.

> Concerning tire temps, while it does have something to do with driving
> style also, changing the damping will change the tire temps even if you
> are careful to maintain the same driving style. Because the dampers
> change the transient response of the suspension, they are also changing
> the vertical load on the tires during transients. F = ma. Stiffer
> bump/softer rebound dampers will raise tire temps by raising the average
> vertical load on the tire. Softer bump/stiffer rebound damping
> decreases tire temps. Granted, changing dampers only to change tire
> temps is a bit tricky, given the number of other things that are
> affected. It makes more sense to change the springs usually. But it's
> part of the toolkit and it's good to know what the effect is. Tire
> temps are a very direct and effective way of determining whether you
> have the right amount of suspension compliance for the tire and the
> track (provided that you are a smooth driver - if not the temps are
> rubbish!).

> > Haqsau,

> > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same
> thing
> > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real
> or
> > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients,
> which
> > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps,
> > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
> > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to
> reconnect
> > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops
> back
> > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,
> rear-end
> > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
> pavement.
> > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly
> as hell
> > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> > temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined
> with
> > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on
> the GPL
> > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> > Private lessons available for a fee.

> > --Steve

by **Steve Smit** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:42:02

Goy,

The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guide I
wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might
recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave Henrie,
who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with one of
the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

In it, I thought I had addressed the methodology of arrving at setups. I
agree that the gear splits are a good place to start. The exact progression
is somewhat arbitrary (or based on subjective "hunches"), but as I indicated
in my exchange w. Haqsau, the shocks are probably the last thing I get
dialed in (altho I almost always try some NASCAR-style weight jacking toward
the end).

It's not a linear progression. You keep circling the same parameters. As
you get dialed in, your exit speed from any given corner increases, raising
your Vmax on the following straight, neccessitating a longer gear. As you
get more comfortable with a track and a setup that's beginning to work for
you, you get more camber gain, so you have to keep notching the negative
camber back. As you go faster, you put more heat in the tires, which can
demand spring, shock, and/or TP changes. Etc.

In the beta days, Alison Hine was amazed at how I could zero in on a setup
within 20 minutes. Now she's better at it than I am. (Of course, being a
better driver helps, too.)

--Steve

> > Did you read the book? No help?

> Which one ? :-)

> Seriously Steve, which books have you written on the subject, I feel the
> need to add to my personal library and there's a decent Automobilia book
> shop an hour's drive from here

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
> --Groucho Marx--

by **Larr** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:19:32

Quick Question...

Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate. Right?

Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower
rate. Right?

I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me, even
after reading Rodney's setup guide.

I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use these in
my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have no
clue how to handle.

-Larry

> Haqsau,

> The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same
thing
> as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or
> virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients, which
> are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps,
> turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
> least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect
> with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back
> down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end
> lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
pavement.
> The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as
hell
> under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined with
> stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the
GPL
> suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> Private lessons available for a fee.

> --Steve

> > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
> > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C,
> > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average
> > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
> > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is the
> > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
> > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are
> > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance -
> > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
> > across the tire.

> > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
> > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
> > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the
> > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
> > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
> > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
> > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and especially
> > ARB stiffness can help this.

> > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
> > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles onto
> > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than
> > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
> > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
> > track.

> > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis is
> > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
> > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle application
> > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner
> > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those situations,
> > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound
> > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on
> > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient
> > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
> > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
> > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference, which
> > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
> > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
> > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
> > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control
> > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow
> > this
> > > method.
> > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> > > 2. adjust gearing
> > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a
> > nice
> > > inside to outside progression.
> > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little
> > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> > > 5. check air pressures again...
> > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
> > those help
> > > me at each individual track.
> > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in
> > GENERAL
> > > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE the
> > fast
> > > rebound or lower it?
> > > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> > > dave henrie

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:47:25

Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in
Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings
do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I
generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from
track to track.
dave henrie

by **Darf** » Sat, 27 Jul 2002 00:23:35

I am very similar to Dave in the way that I setup my cars.
I get to about the same point as Dave and then It gets very hard to
work out if the adjustments that I make are in fact improving my Lap Times,
or if it is just a psychological thing. My lap times ARE getting slightly
better, but that could also be achieved by the extra practice that I am
putting in due to the constant Test Driving.
I usually go back to the Setup that is at the point before I started playing
with the shocks etc. I then find that my lap times don't suffer by doing so.
Would it be possible for someone to write a program that could extract lap
data and create an appropriate car setup to suit the driving style?
I know that this might take the fun out of it for you Setup Junkies, but it
would be great for guys like Dave and I that get lost in the Setup Junk Yard
:-).
After all, the real F1 teams get computer help with their car setups.
What do you guys think of this idea?

Darf

> > Goy,

> > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
guide
> I
> > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might
> > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
Henrie,
> > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with
one
> of
> > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

> Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in
> Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings
> do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I
> generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from
> track to track.
> dave henrie

by **Steve Smit** » Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:53:38

Larry,

Lower = softer. Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits picturesquely
call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly.

In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly.

Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing. Altho the principles remain
the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff
that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't have
the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2). I use the 'store-bought'
settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in the gearing
and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers.

--Steve

> Quick Question...

> Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate.
Right?

> Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower
> rate. Right?

> I never could get this straight. Shocks confuse the hell out of me, even
> after reading Rodney's setup guide.

> I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use these
in
> my setups. Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have no
> clue how to handle.

> -Larry

> > Haqsau,

> > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same
> thing
> > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or
> > virtual, is the car in a steady state. The shox affect transients,
which
> > are occurring almost all the time. At the front, shox affect bumps,
> > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
> > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to
reconnect
> > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops
back
> > down during chassis roll. At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,
rear-end
> > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
> pavement.
> > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as
> hell
> > under braking. And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> > temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined with
> > stiff shocks will raise the temps more). Of all the adjustments on the
> GPL
> > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> > Private lessons available for a fee.

> > --Steve

> > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
> > > the tire temps. For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85
C,
> > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only
average
> > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
> > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little. Raising spring rate is
the
> > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
> > > damping can be more effective. Obviously do the opposite if they are
> > > too hot. This is one of the primary effects of suspension
compliance -
> > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
> > > across the tire.

> > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
> > > tire geometry. Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
> > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on
the
> > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
> > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
> > > old VW swing axle effect. If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
> > > causes a different sort of problem. Increased suspension and
especially
> > > ARB stiffness can help this.

> > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
> > > use a lot of downforce. You can set the car up so that it settles
onto
> > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance
than
> > > you would otherwise be able to. The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
> > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
> > > track.

> > > Dampers are a tricky subject. They are only in use when the chassis
is
> > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
> > > braking, or steady cornering. What they affect is throttle
application
> > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at
corner
> > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit. In those
situations,
> > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer
rebound
> > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force
on
> > > the tire in those situations. So you can use dampers to fix transient
> > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
> > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
> > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> > > dramatically during transient situations. My personal preference,
which
> > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
> > > rates front and rear. Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
> > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
> > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering
control
> > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> > > > When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually
follow
> > > this
> > > > method.
> > > > 1. run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> > > > 2. adjust gearing
> > > > 3. then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get
a
> > > nice
> > > > inside to outside progression.
> > > > 4. Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a
little
> > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> > > > 5. check air pressures again...
> > > > 6. Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> > > > 7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> > > > There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
> > > those help
> > > > me at each individual track.
> > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in
> > > GENERAL
> > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> > > > What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me? Why do I RAISE
the
> > > fast
> > > > rebound or lower it?
> > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> > > > dave henrie

by **Steve Smit** » Sat, 27 Jul 2002 02:10:57

Gennelmen,

Two points:

1. Lap times are a poor way to tell if the change (singular; never make more
than one at once) you just wrought is having the desired effect. Yes, you
may be faster just because you're more familiar with the track...or you just
got lucky (more of a factor if you're not metronomically consistent). As
Doug Arnao suggested a long time ago, tire temps are your best setup clue.
Just remember that the inside temps should be a degree or two higher than
the outside temps so you know you're taking advantage of camber thrust, and
on fast courses (Reims, ovals), the center-tread temp should be one or two
degrees higher still to take advantage of an overinflated tire's lower
rolling resistance (e.g., RF: 220\222\218).

2. You know you've got the right setup when the car is easy to drive
(providing you've complied w. 1., above). I used to think that there were
fast setups and then there were easy setups (a la NASCAR), but if you're
uncomfortable with a setup, it's unlikely you'll be able to extend yourself
into the uncharted territory neccessary to set new personal bests.
Conversely, with a setup you find easy to drive at 7 or 8 tenths, it will
almost always also be easy to drive at 9 and 10 tenths, which is where you
need to be to get to the next level (or at least into The Zone).

Ultimately, you may be one of those poor souls who can't tell the difference
between a good setup and a bad one, in which case don't quit your day job.
I'm not a terribly good driver, but I can tell if a setup is right for me by
the time I'm half out of the pits. Well, certainly after a couple of turns
(and well before the end of the first lap--hint: GPL setups should always
oversteer before the tires warm up...and probably after, too).

--Steve

> I am very similar to Dave in the way that I setup my cars.
> I get to about the same point as Dave and then It gets very hard to
> work out if the adjustments that I make are in fact improving my Lap
Times,
> or if it is just a psychological thing. My lap times ARE getting slightly
> better, but that could also be achieved by the extra practice that I am
> putting in due to the constant Test Driving.
> I usually go back to the Setup that is at the point before I started
playing
> with the shocks etc. I then find that my lap times don't suffer by doing
so.
> Would it be possible for someone to write a program that could extract lap
> data and create an appropriate car setup to suit the driving style?
> I know that this might take the fun out of it for you Setup Junkies, but
it
> would be great for guys like Dave and I that get lost in the Setup Junk
Yard
> :-).
> After all, the real F1 teams get computer help with their car setups.
> What do you guys think of this idea?

> Darf

> > > Goy,

> > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> guide
> > I
> > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
might
> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> Henrie,
> > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with
> one
> > of
> > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

> > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in
> > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
settings
> > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire. I
> > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from
> > track to track.
> > dave henrie

rec.autos.simulators

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???

Setup Step by step???