rec.autos.simulators

>The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same thing
>as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or
>virtual, is the car in a steady state.  The shox affect transients, which
>are occurring almost all the time.  At the front, shox affect bumps,
>turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
>least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect
>with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops back
>down during chassis roll.  At the rear, they affect bumps, squat, rear-end
>lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the pavement.
>The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
>determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
>Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as hell
>under braking.  And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
>temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined with
>stiff shocks will raise the temps more).  Of all the adjustments on the GPL
>suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

>Private lessons available for a fee.

>--Steve

>> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
>> the tire temps.  For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C,
>> and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average
>> 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
>> raising the springs and/or dampers a little.  Raising spring rate is the
>> preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
>> damping can be more effective.  Obviously do the opposite if they are
>> too hot.  This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance -
>> how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
>> across the tire.

>> Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
>> tire geometry.  Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
>> the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the
>> brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
>> travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
>> old VW swing axle effect.  If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
>> causes a different sort of problem.  Increased suspension and especially
>> ARB stiffness can help this.

>> AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
>> use a lot of downforce.  You can set the car up so that it settles onto
>> the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
>> downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than
>> you would otherwise be able to.  The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
>> useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
>> ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
>> track.

>> Dampers are a tricky subject.  They are only in use when the chassis is
>> moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
>> braking, or steady cornering.  What they affect is throttle application
>> and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner
>> entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit.  In those situations,
>> a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound
>> damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force on
>> the tire in those situations.  So you can use dampers to fix transient
>> handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
>> change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
>> in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
>> dramatically during transient situations.  My personal preference, which
>> really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
>> higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
>> rates front and rear.  Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
>> higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
>> underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering control
>> and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

>> >   When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow
>> this
>> > method.
>> > 1.  run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
>> >  2.  adjust gearing
>> >  3.  then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get a
>> nice
>> > inside to outside progression.
>> >  4.  Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a little
>> > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
>> >  5.  check air pressures again...
>> >  6.  Sometimes fool with the wings.....
>> >   7...NOW I'M LOST>....
>> >   There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
>> those help
>> > me at each individual track.
>> > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in
>> GENERAL
>> > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
>> >   What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me?  Why do I RAISE the
>> fast
>> > rebound or lower it?
>> > And ditto for the slow rebound........
>> > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
>> > dave henrie

>   The last part is easy...I suck....
> But here's the rub..  For a relatively easy track like the modern
> Monza...I'm quite far off the pace.  I sent an email to a couple of guys who
> are faster on the FIA GT rank to beg for a setup.  I got one which I haven't
> tested yet...but the other guy...bascially said he used the default setup.
>   I started with those,  and after gettting some hints here and elsewhere
> was able to IMPROVE most of my times by making some changes.  I gained maybe
> two seconds per track....but this sucker, (sorry) using the base setup that
> I had already run into the ground, had beaten my improved times by another 4
> or 5 seconds...sheeesh!   I worked for the last several weeks and got less
> than a third of what he pulled out WITHOUT changing a dang thing.  There
> oughta be a law...
> dave henrie

> > ...As my eyes start to glaze over...

> > How DO you guys figure this shit out???  I may as well be trying to do
calculus
> > for as much as I understand it.  Every time I've changed a setup, it's
only
> > gotten worse.  Changing the selected variable the other way gives the
same
> > result - worse.  I don't get it. :-(

> Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people
> were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the
> setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell
> can you expect to improve upon it ?

> What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one
> of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found
> *your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the
> setup keeping you from going faster

> Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much
> understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ?

> And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't
> responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%),
> that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the
> value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular
> change does and how it translates in "feel"

> Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track
> you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety,
> Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be
> good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were
> looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to
> make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the
> "variables" which you have while driving

> Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this
> is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one
> setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by
> stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's
> oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to
> your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering

> But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost
> hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not
> only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as
> Steve pointed out

> I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team
> Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his
> "endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and
> running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG
> without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I
> could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each
> other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it
> would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic
> driving on my part

> At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this
> than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it,
> but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear
> and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that
> setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and
> I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track,
> and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a
> good lap with my eventual setup

> And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit
> since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the
> basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you
> can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are
> diluted by your own irregular driving

> Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and
> with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic
> "real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to
> make your car handle, techniques for the
> 1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series,
> it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as
> sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound
> of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that,
> you either know it or need to look it up

> All IMHO of course :-)

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> http://www.theuspits.com

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--

> > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver,
Road
> > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I
also

> > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"
in
> > the 80s.  After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on
"The
> > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),
although
> > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball
Run
> > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).

> Ah, I used to read R&T a bit, until I lost interest in American cars,
> that was in the early 80's just before I got my license :-)

> So where would one find some of your articles these day then, online or
> otherwise ?

> Don't think they carry PC Computing here, at least I can't remember
> seeing it

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--

> Is it possible to create Porpoising situation GPL?  I would think it
> would occur readily when experimenting with really stiff suspensions
> but I haven't experienced it that I'm aware of (and I think I'd be
> aware of it).

> Jason

> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 00:59:30 GMT, "Steve Smith"

> >Haqsau,

> >The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same
thing
> >as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real or
> >virtual, is the car in a steady state.  The shox affect transients, which
> >are occurring almost all the time.  At the front, shox affect bumps,
> >turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
> >least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to reconnect
> >with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops
back
> >down during chassis roll.  At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,
rear-end
> >lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
pavement.
> >The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> >determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> >Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly as
hell
> >under braking.  And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> >temps...depending on how you drive (*** wheel twirling combined with
> >stiff shocks will raise the temps more).  Of all the adjustments on the
GPL
> >suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> >Private lessons available for a fee.

> >--Steve

> >> One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or lower
> >> the tire temps.  For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85 C,
> >> and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only average
> >> 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
> >> raising the springs and/or dampers a little.  Raising spring rate is
the
> >> preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in bump
> >> damping can be more effective.  Obviously do the opposite if they are
> >> too hot.  This is one of the primary effects of suspension compliance -
> >> how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average temps
> >> across the tire.

> >> Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
> >> tire geometry.  Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like how
> >> the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on the
> >> brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive suspension
> >> travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you the
> >> old VW swing axle effect.  If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
> >> causes a different sort of problem.  Increased suspension and
especially
> >> ARB stiffness can help this.

> >> AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars that
> >> use a lot of downforce.  You can set the car up so that it settles onto
> >> the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> >> downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance than
> >> you would otherwise be able to.  The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
> >> useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> >> ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
> >> track.

> >> Dampers are a tricky subject.  They are only in use when the chassis is
> >> moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
> >> braking, or steady cornering.  What they affect is throttle application
> >> and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at corner
> >> entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit.  In those situations,
> >> a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer rebound
> >> damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal force
on
> >> the tire in those situations.  So you can use dampers to fix transient
> >> handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because any
> >> change affects all those situations, and because getting too far apart
> >> in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> >> dramatically during transient situations.  My personal preference,
which
> >> really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> >> higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same damping
> >> rates front and rear.  Since I use rear springs that are only slightly
> >> higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
> >> underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering
control
> >> and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> >> >   When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually follow
> >> this
> >> > method.
> >> > 1.  run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> >> >  2.  adjust gearing
> >> >  3.  then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to get
a
> >> nice
> >> > inside to outside progression.
> >> >  4.  Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a
little
> >> > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> >> >  5.  check air pressures again...
> >> >  6.  Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> >> >   7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> >> >   There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
> >> those help
> >> > me at each individual track.
> >> > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but in
> >> GENERAL
> >> > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> >> >   What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me?  Why do I RAISE
the
> >> fast
> >> > rebound or lower it?
> >> > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> >> > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> >> > dave henrie

>> ...As my eyes start to glaze over...

>> How DO you guys figure this shit out???  I may as well be trying to do
>calculus
>> for as much as I understand it.  Every time I've changed a setup, it's only
>> gotten worse.  Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same
>> result - worse.  I don't get it. :-(

>Well, that's on of the things I was talking about when I said people
>were chasing setups too much, if you don't have a decent handle on the
>setup you're using *and* are unfamiliar with setup work, how the hell
>can you expect to improve upon it ?

>What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one
>of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found
>*your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the
>setup keeping you from going faster

>When Brock Yates was at Hobart College in Geneva, NY, he and his
>beer-guzzling fraternity brothers discovered that you could create a PIO
>(pilot-induced oscillation) in a 1961 Corvair by spinning the wheel all the
>way in one direction (the Corvair had really slow steering, even for a
>rear-engines car), then take your hands off the wheel, and with judicious
>applications of the throttle, get the steering to see-saw sickeningly from
>lock to lock like something from a Joie Chitwood or a Hellzapoppin show.
>They swore they only did this in empty parking lots.  Sure.  Thutty days or
>thutty dollahs.  Pay the bailiff.

> >That's another problem.  I can be 2 or 3 seconds slower than someone else
using
> >the SAME setup.

> This is why I generally follow a few rules that most others on here
> will scoff at but my times improve at a rapid pace when I actually put
> the time in:

> 1. Don't race mixed-skill pickup races online.
> 2. Don't race mixed-skill races online period.
> 3. Don't worry about how fast anyone else is going, set your own pace
> and slowly build from there.  Racing is 99.9% mental, and if you get
> rattled by how fast other people are going, you're never going to get
> anywhere.  The reason for #2 above is that imho if you keep getting
> blown away by the fast guys you're going to start pushing yourself
> past your current limits, which teaches you nothing.  Learning how to
> be fast is about extending your limits by practicing at your current
> limit until you feel comfortable moving ahead.   Driving harder than
> you're capable of teaches you nothing.
> 4. Join a rookie league.  RASCAR firebrand is fantastic.  I joined
> Firebrand last winter, got absolutely blown away during the practice
> season, lucky to finish on the lead lap half the time, until the last
> race when all my practice finally started to click and I won
> Darlington by 4 laps in a 35% race.  Then I dominated the first half
> of the season by winning 4 of the first 5 races and building a gaudy
> 300 point lead in the Championship.
> 5. Don't get rattled.  In reference to 4, the last 6 races of the
> season were the worst 6 I've driven in my life.  I won the
> championship anyway, but barely because I got rattled and ended up
> crashing out in the last 2 races.
> 6. A fast driver will go fast in a slow setup.  A slow driver will go
> slow in a fast setup.  Don't worry about setups until you and the sim
> have literally bonded into one coexisting entity.  As I said before, I
> have a fairly decent N2002 rank imho and it was done completely by
> luck using the fast setups that ship with the game, as I can't turn a
> wrench to save my life.
> 7. When you're getting frustrated and nothing you do seems to help, or
> you're suddenly slower than you were the day before, go outside or
> read a book.  No one is at the top of their game everyday.
> 8. This is probably a reiteration, but practice your line before
> worrying about going fast.  The fast guys are fast not because they're
> on the ragged edge (or if they are, they're bound to be ragged and in
> the wall), they're fast because the know the best way around the track
> and they can put the car exactly where they want it lap after lap.
> 9. Develop a technique.  Aggressive or smooth.  Find a style that
> suits you and stick to it until you've mastered it.  Ultimately you
> want to be able to be aggressive or smooth depending on the situations
> in a race, but it's better being good at one than bad at both.

> Me, I win a decent share of races simply by being slightly off pace
> but as smooth as is possible.  Personally, I think this is the style
> people should learn first, because it breeds consistency.

> Anyway, before doing anything else, practice until you can put the car
> where you want it when you want it.  Get a feel for the grip you have
> to play with.  Until you know your driving style, know what the car is
> going to do, and can literally drive lap after lap exactly the same,
> don't waste your time with setups or stressing over Gregor Huttu being
> 0.5 faster than you at Pocono.

> Jason