its way to the printer. I moved heaven & earth to get it in there. It was
worth it.
> There was one car you were particularly fond of, overall. Wasn't it the
> Brabham ? It seemed to have 'balance' overall compared to the rest.
> -Larry
> > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy."
> > > I have that book. I think.
> > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how
> the
> > > various cars behave ?
> > > -Larry
> > > > > Goy,
> > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the
strategy
> > > guide
> > > > I
> > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> > might
> > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> > > Henrie,
> > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come
> with
> > > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."
> > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap
> in
> > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
> > settings
> > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.
I
> > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them
> from
> > > > track to track.
> > > > dave henrie
> -Larry
> > Yeah, Lar - I'm "the guy."
> > > I have that book. I think.
> > > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how
> the
> > > various cars behave ?
> > > -Larry
> > > > > Goy,
> > > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the
strategy
> > > guide
> > > > I
> > > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> > might
> > > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> > > Henrie,
> > > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come
> with
> > > one
> > > > of
> > > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."
> > > > Yes indeedy. I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap
> in
> > > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> > > > I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
> > settings
> > > > do, once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.
I
> > > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them
> from
> > > > track to track.
> > > > dave henrie
> > Goy,
> > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
guide I
> > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might
> > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check
> out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably
> not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars
> being my other passion....:-)
> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy
> http://www.theuspits.com
> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--
BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run still
lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other bridge?
;o)
Brian
> > > Goy,
> > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the
strategy
> guide I
> > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
might
> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to
check
> > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material,
preferably
> > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars
> > being my other passion....:-)
> > Beers and cheers
> > (uncle) Goy
> > http://www.theuspits.com
> > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> > --Groucho Marx--
On the very first Cannonball (I am the only living American to have competed
in both the first Cannonball and the first One Lap of America; a distinction
Bruce McCall sez is akin to boasting you're "The World's Tallest Midget"), I
set the fastest average speed of any stint on the route...thru Ohio! I
don't know if I was stupid-brave or if the cops were all asleep.
Are you sure your role model wasn't Jay Chamberlain, an ex-drag racer who
bought one of the Team Lotus 49s (a '67 model he updated to B specs), and
took to Europe for a partial F1 season (in '69, I think), towing it around
behind a VW Microbus? P.S. He still has the car and drives it at vintage
events. It's worth about 1,000 times what he paid for it.
Brock is still my friend (and neighbor) and David E. is still by boss (altho
he's now at Motor Trend).
--Steve
> > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car &
> Driver, Road
> > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I
> also
> > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"
> in
> > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on
> "The
> > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),
> although
> > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the
> Cannonball Run
> > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).
> Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?), Henry
> Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a
> huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught
> reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in the
> mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat X1/9,
> based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we won't go
> there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article about a
> fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall, he
> had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he couldn't
> mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is sitting
> at my desk... Oh, well.
> BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run still
> lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other bridge?
> ;o)
> Brian
> > > > Goy,
> > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the
> strategy
> > guide I
> > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> might
> > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to
> check
> > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material,
> preferably
> > > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars
> > > being my other passion....:-)
> > > Beers and cheers
> > > (uncle) Goy
> > > http://www.theuspits.com
> > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> > > --Groucho Marx--
Steve,
I remember (vaguely) the stories about Jay Chamberlain, but the story I
was referring to was about a young man who decided to tour Europe
cheaply, like many young people of that era, the only difference being
that he raced F3 while doing it. There was a cost breakdown in the
article, & tips on where to stay cheaply, or for free, & ways to survive
on next to nothing. He had a VW Micro, but the pick-up truck version, &
carried the race car on ramps mounted to the sides (I can still see the
picture in my mind). I don't remember how his story ended, but at the
time it seemed like an irresistible adventure to a young man who dreamed
of racing.
My racing career ended abruptly with the words "I do" in 1976.
Another mistake, & we won't go there either. ;o/
Thanks for rekindling the memories,
Brian
> > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car &
> > Driver, Road
> > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.),
but I
> > also
> > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the
> > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1
commercials"
> > in
> > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me
down on
> > "The
> > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired
(again),
> > although
> > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the
> > Cannonball Run
> > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).
> > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?),
Henry
> > Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a
> > huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught
> > reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in
the
> > mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat
X1/9,
> > based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we
won't go
> > there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article
about a
> > fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall,
he
> > had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he
couldn't
> > mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is
sitting
> > at my desk... Oh, well.
> > BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run
still
> > lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other
bridge?
> > ;o)
> > Brian
Actually, I erred: Chamberlain likewise had the flatbed 'pickup' model of
the Microbus and backed the Lotus up the ramps so that, when fully docked,
the front wheels hung way out behind the VW's engine...and abt. 5 ft. in the
air. The handling on the Autobahn prolly woulda been hairraising but for
the fact that the rig's top speed couldn't have been more than 67 mph. Even
so....
--Steve
> > On the very first Cannonball (I am the only living American to have
> competed
> > in both the first Cannonball and the first One Lap of America; a
> distinction
> > Bruce McCall sez is akin to boasting you're "The World's Tallest
> Midget"), I
> > set the fastest average speed of any stint on the route...thru Ohio!
> I
> > don't know if I was stupid-brave or if the cops were all asleep.
> > Are you sure your role model wasn't Jay Chamberlain, an ex-drag racer
> who
> > bought one of the Team Lotus 49s (a '67 model he updated to B specs),
> and
> > took to Europe for a partial F1 season (in '69, I think), towing it
> around
> > behind a VW Microbus? P.S. He still has the car and drives it at
> vintage
> > events. It's worth about 1,000 times what he paid for it.
> > Brock is still my friend (and neighbor) and David E. is still by boss
> (altho
> > he's now at Motor Trend).
> > --Steve
> Steve,
> I remember (vaguely) the stories about Jay Chamberlain, but the story I
> was referring to was about a young man who decided to tour Europe
> cheaply, like many young people of that era, the only difference being
> that he raced F3 while doing it. There was a cost breakdown in the
> article, & tips on where to stay cheaply, or for free, & ways to survive
> on next to nothing. He had a VW Micro, but the pick-up truck version, &
> carried the race car on ramps mounted to the sides (I can still see the
> picture in my mind). I don't remember how his story ended, but at the
> time it seemed like an irresistible adventure to a young man who dreamed
> of racing.
> My racing career ended abruptly with the words "I do" in 1976.
> Another mistake, & we won't go there either. ;o/
> Thanks for rekindling the memories,
> Brian
> > > > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car &
> > > Driver, Road
> > > > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.),
> but I
> > > also
> > > > wrote a bunch of TV commercials...from the Mercedes' on the
> > > > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1
> commercials"
> > > in
> > > > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me
> down on
> > > "The
> > > > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired
> (again),
> > > although
> > > > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the
> > > Cannonball Run
> > > > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).
> > > Yeah, I remember those days... Brock Yates, David E. Davis (Jr?),
> Henry
> > > Manney III, Steve Smith (wait a sec... that's you!), et al. I was a
> > > huge fan of both mags (can't remember how many times I was caught
> > > reading one in class (stuffed between the pages of a text book) in
> the
> > > mid to late 60's. (yeah, I'm that old) My 1st new car was a Fiat
> X1/9,
> > > based on the recommendations of C&D and R&T. (A mistake, but we
> won't go
> > > there). Went FF racing in the early 70's because of an article
> about a
> > > fellow who went to Europe & raced F3 on a shoestring (as I recall,
> he
> > > had a VW flatbed w/ ramps & slept under the tarped car when he
> couldn't
> > > mooch a place to stay). Today, the closest I get to racing is
> sitting
> > > at my desk... Oh, well.
> > > BTW, are you aware that the over-reaction to the Cannonball Run
> still
> > > lives on in OH, where there seems to be a cop under every other
> bridge?
> > > ;o)
> > > Brian
> <snip>
-Larry
> > > Goy,
> > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> guide I
> > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
might
> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to check
> > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably
> > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars
> > being my other passion....:-)
> > Beers and cheers
> > (uncle) Goy
> > http://www.theuspits.com
> > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> > --Groucho Marx--
> -Larry
> > Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver,
> Road
> > & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I
also
> > Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials"
in
> > the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on
> "The
> > Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again),
> although
> > I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball
> Run
> > coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).
> > > > Goy,
> > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> > guide I
> > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> might
> > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)
> > > In that case, what books have you written period, I might want to
check
> > > out some of them as I'm need of some new reading material, preferably
> > > not computer related as I've had enough of that for a while and cars
> > > being my other passion....:-)
> > > Beers and cheers
> > > (uncle) Goy
> > > http://www.theuspits.com
> > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> > > --Groucho Marx--
How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus
for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only
gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same
result - worse. I don't get it. :-(
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
More recently (like the last few years), I've been reading
Carroll Smith's excellent "X to Win" books, of which at least
"Drive to Win" and "Tune to Win" have some very useful stuff
about setup.
HTH,
Jonny
> ...As my eyes start to glaze over...
> How DO you guys figure this shit out??? I may as well be trying to do calculus
> for as much as I understand it. Every time I've changed a setup, it's only
> gotten worse. Changing the selected variable the other way gives the same
> result - worse. I don't get it. :-(
What you need to do is drive a "baseline" setup to it's limits, say one
of Allison's as they seem to very stable, and when you feel you found
*your* limits with this setup, try to analyze why you think it's the
setup keeping you from going faster
Is it too unstable under braking, does it have to much
understeer/oversteer, is it too responsive/not responsive enough ?
And then you can start making some changes, if you feel the setup isn't
responsive enough, try stiffening all the springs an equal amount (%),
that way the overall balance of the car hasn't changed, but increase the
value a lot, say 100% all around to make you feel what this particular
change does and how it translates in "feel"
Then try some laps, at least 5-10, and make sure you do this at a track
you can drive without thinking much about it, but still has variety,
Monza isn't a good place to start, but Sears or Silverstone would be
good I guess, and try to sense if this was the kind of change you were
looking for, even if this was probably going too far, but you need to
make big changes to to let the setup change filter through all the
"variables" which you have while driving
Don't tinker about with it, make a HUGE change and try to sense if this
is what you're looking for, just remember that when you change one
setting, it also affect other things, making the car more responsive by
stiffening the springs for instance, will also make it seem like it's
oversteeing more, but it's not really, it's just responding faster to
your inputs so it "feels" like it's oversteering
But if you can't drive a certain track/setup consistently, it's almost
hopeless to evaluate if the changes you do have made a difference, not
only in lap times, but more importantly in the "feel" of the car as
Steve pointed out
I did a fair amount of setup chasing myself until my teammate in Team
Mirage handed me a couple of his setups, his baseline setup and his
"endurance" setup for Watkins Glen, this was back in N2 of course, and
running nothing but his baseline setup I did several hundred laps at WG
without changing anything but the gearing, ran enough laps so that I
could run several laps in succession within a couple of tenths of each
other, at which point I knew that whatever change I made to the setup it
would be the change that made it feel different and not some erratic
driving on my part
At which point I loaded up his other setup and I was slower with this
than with the baseline setup at first as it had a different feel to it,
but unlike the baseline setup it had dead even tire wear front to rear
and really came in after about 10 laps or so, I used a variation of that
setup right up until the end of the N3 era in the TPTCC last spring and
I also used the same baseline setup when first going out on a new track,
and at most tracks this setup would get me within 1 or 2 seconds of a
good lap with my eventual setup
And it was no trick setup either, now, I know things have moved on a bit
since the N2/3 days with 3D physics and all, but in my opinion, the
basic rules still apply, until you you've "mastered" the car itself, you
can't do any useful work on the setups as the feedback you get are
diluted by your own irregular driving
Setups is not a black art, but it takes a lot of time and patience, and
with these more sophisticated physics engines, it also takes some basic
"real world" knowledge, my fav book is "Performance handling" (how to
make your car handle, techniques for the
1990's) by Don Alexander, I believe it's a pt of the HP Books series,
it's the one I keep going back to whenever I'm stuck in a rut, such as
sorting out my turn in oversteer problem in N2002, "increase the rebound
of the rear shocks", you can't guess your way to something like that,
you either know it or need to look it up
All IMHO of course :-)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
> Yes...although I do find my setups "evolve" as my driving style evolves. As
> my car control improves, my setups change, mostly from neutral to loose.
> But the core values of most of my setups (even for new tracks, which are
> almost always like some previous tracks; Shutoko is an exception) have
> remained fairly stable for the last couple of years. (What other sim could
> make that statement?)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
> Most of my writing over the years has been for magazines (Car & Driver, Road
> & Track, Motor Trend, Autoweek, PC Computing, Smart Kid, etc.), but I also
> Sindelfingen in the 60s to the "At Ford, Quality is Job 1 commercials" in
> the 80s. After every car-book publisher in the U.S. turned me down on "The
> Making of John Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix,'" I've retired (again), although
> I do have a cameo in Brock Yates' forthcoming history of the Cannonball Run
> coast-to-coast races in the 70s (of which I was a co-counder).
So where would one find some of your articles these day then, online or
otherwise ?
Don't think they carry PC Computing here, at least I can't remember
seeing it
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--