rec.autos.simulators

> > Goy,

> > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
guide
> I
> > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might
> > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
Henrie,
> > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with
one
> of
> > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

>   Yes indeedy.  I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in
> Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
>    I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of settings
> do,  once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.  I
> generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from
> track to track.
> dave henrie

> Lower = softer.  Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits picturesquely
> call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly.

> In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly.

> Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing.  Altho the principles
remain
> the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff
> that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't have
> the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2).  I use the 'store-bought'
> settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in the
gearing
> and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers.

> --Steve

> "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:EVS%8.133019$%%2.5750652@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Quick Question...

> > Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate.
> Right?

> > Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a slower
> > rate.  Right?

> > I never could get this straight.  Shocks confuse the hell out of me,
even
> > after reading Rodney's setup guide.

> > I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use
these
> in
> > my setups.  Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have
no
> > clue how to handle.

> > -Larry

> > "Steve Smith" <ssmit...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:S3I%8.196768$uk2.66170968@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> > > Haqsau,

> > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the same
> > thing
> > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track, real
or
> > > virtual, is the car in a steady state.  The shox affect transients,
> which
> > > are occurring almost all the time.  At the front, shox affect bumps,
> > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not aero...at
> > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to
> reconnect
> > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire drops
> back
> > > down during chassis roll.  At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,
> rear-end
> > > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
> > pavement.
> > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly
as
> > hell
> > > under braking.  And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined
with
> > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more).  Of all the adjustments on
the
> > GPL
> > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> > > Private lessons available for a fee.

> > > --Steve

> > > "Haqsau" <haq...@planetquake.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ahn3ru$u5132$1@ID-125164.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or
lower
> > > > the tire temps.  For example if you know the optimum tire temp is 85
> C,
> > > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only
> average
> > > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip by
> > > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little.  Raising spring rate is
> the
> > > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in
bump
> > > > damping can be more effective.  Obviously do the opposite if they
are
> > > > too hot.  This is one of the primary effects of suspension
> compliance -
> > > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average
temps
> > > > across the tire.

> > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up the
> > > > tire geometry.  Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like
how
> > > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get on
> the
> > > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive
suspension
> > > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you
the
> > > > old VW swing axle effect.  If you try to fix this with bumpstops it
> > > > causes a different sort of problem.  Increased suspension and
> especially
> > > > ARB stiffness can help this.

> > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars
that
> > > > use a lot of downforce.  You can set the car up so that it settles
> onto
> > > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> > > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance
> than
> > > > you would otherwise be able to.  The F1 2K telemetry tool is really
> > > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> > > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around the
> > > > track.

> > > > Dampers are a tricky subject.  They are only in use when the chassis
> is
> > > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration, steady
> > > > braking, or steady cornering.  What they affect is throttle
> application
> > > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at
> corner
> > > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit.  In those
> situations,
> > > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer
> rebound
> > > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal
force
> on
> > > > the tire in those situations.  So you can use dampers to fix
transient
> > > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because
any
> > > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far
apart
> > > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> > > > dramatically during transient situations.  My personal preference,
> which
> > > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> > > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same
damping
> > > > rates front and rear.  Since I use rear springs that are only
slightly
> > > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being slightly
> > > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering
> control
> > > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Icq%8.144669$uw.89617@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> > > > >   When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually
> follow
> > > > this
> > > > > method.
> > > > > 1.  run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> > > > >  2.  adjust gearing
> > > > >  3.  then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to
get
> a
> > > > nice
> > > > > inside to outside progression.
> > > > >  4.  Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a
> little
> > > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> > > > >  5.  check air pressures again...
> > > > >  6.  Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> > > > >   7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> > > > >   There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue how
> > > > those help
> > > > > me at each individual track.
> > > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001 but
in
> > > > GENERAL
> > > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> > > > >   What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me?  Why do I RAISE
> the
> > > > fast
> > > > > rebound or lower it?
> > > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> > > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> > > > > dave henrie

> With that bit of concept out of the way, I can probably make more sense
out
> of it :)

> The 'quick-help' popups in NR2002 for shocks always seemed 'backwards' to
> me.  I'll go back and re-apply this knowledge and see if they make more
> sense.

> Thanks!

> -Larry

> "Steve Smith" <ssmit...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:m2W%8.89$A35.135408@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> > Larry,

> > Lower = softer.  Hence, in rebound (or "droop," as the Brits
picturesquely
> > call it) , yes, a higher number means the shock expands more slowly.

> > In jounce, yes, a higher number means the shock compresses more slowly.

> > Presumably, you're talking abt. NASCAR Racing.  Altho the principles
> remain
> > the same, I find the suspension settings far more mysterious...and stuff
> > that has worked for me since IndyCar Racing on road circuits doesn't
have
> > the desired effect in N2002 (or N3 or even N2).  I use the
'store-bought'
> > settings that ship with the game, with some minor adjustments in the
> gearing
> > and--to get the temps more even--a few clicks of the TPs and cambers.

> > --Steve

> > "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> > news:EVS%8.133019$%%2.5750652@news2.east.cox.net...
> > > Quick Question...

> > > Rebound - Higher numbers mean the shock 'expands' at a slower rate.
> > Right?

> > > Compression - Higher numbers mean that a shock 'compresses' at a
slower
> > > rate.  Right?

> > > I never could get this straight.  Shocks confuse the hell out of me,
> even
> > > after reading Rodney's setup guide.

> > > I usually set the FAST setup, record the shock values, and then use
> these
> > in
> > > my setups.  Not optimum, I'm sure, but shocks are the ONE thing I have
> no
> > > clue how to handle.

> > > -Larry

> > > "Steve Smith" <ssmit...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:S3I%8.196768$uk2.66170968@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> > > > Haqsau,

> > > > The shox also work most decidedly in roll (which isn't quite the
same
> > > thing
> > > > as vertical movement), and at almost no point on any race track,
real
> or
> > > > virtual, is the car in a steady state.  The shox affect transients,
> > which
> > > > are occurring almost all the time.  At the front, shox affect bumps,
> > > > turn-in, brake dive, front end lift (under acceleration; not
aero...at
> > > > least, not in GPL), and how quickly the tires drop back down to
> > reconnect
> > > > with the pavement after a bump, and/or how fast the inside tire
drops
> > back
> > > > down during chassis roll.  At the rear, they affect bumps, squat,
> > rear-end
> > > > lift (under braking), and how quickly the tires reconnect with the
> > > pavement.
> > > > The shock stagger (the difference between front and rear values) can
> > > > determine whether a car has initial or exit over- or under- steer.
> > > > Left-to-right stagger is used on ovals, but makes the car squirrelly
> as
> > > hell
> > > > under braking.  And, yes, they can be used to affect the tire
> > > > temps...depending on how you drive (violent wheel twirling combined
> with
> > > > stiff shocks will raise the temps more).  Of all the adjustments on
> the
> > > GPL
> > > > suspension page, shox are the most mysterious and misunderstood.

> > > > Private lessons available for a fee.

> > > > --Steve

> > > > "Haqsau" <haq...@planetquake.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:ahn3ru$u5132$1@ID-125164.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > One effect you can get out of springs and dampers is to raise or
> lower
> > > > > the tire temps.  For example if you know the optimum tire temp is
85
> > C,
> > > > > and when you use pressure to even out the temps they still only
> > average
> > > > > 70 C, you can increase the overall temp and thus get better grip
by
> > > > > raising the springs and/or dampers a little.  Raising spring rate
is
> > the
> > > > > preferred way to do this, but sometimes just a little increase in
> bump
> > > > > damping can be more effective.  Obviously do the opposite if they
> are
> > > > > too hot.  This is one of the primary effects of suspension
> > compliance -
> > > > > how hard it is making the tire work, as evidenced by the average
> temps
> > > > > across the tire.

> > > > > Another effect of suspension compliance is how much it screws up
the
> > > > > tire geometry.  Some of the stranger effects you get in GPL, like
> how
> > > > > the rear end wants to come around if you have to immediately get
on
> > the
> > > > > brakes after exiting a turn, appear to be due to excessive
> suspension
> > > > > travel, which in combination with the high roll centers gives you
> the
> > > > > old VW swing axle effect.  If you try to fix this with bumpstops
it
> > > > > causes a different sort of problem.  Increased suspension and
> > especially
> > > > > ARB stiffness can help this.

> > > > > AFAIK the only good way to use bumpstops or packers is with cars
> that
> > > > > use a lot of downforce.  You can set the car up so that it settles
> > onto
> > > > > the packers at high speeds, and thereby get away with using more
> > > > > downforce and/or a softer suspension and/or lower ground clearance
> > than
> > > > > you would otherwise be able to.  The F1 2K telemetry tool is
really
> > > > > useful for experimenting with this, since it can show you how your
> > > > > ground clearance and suspension travel changes as you go around
the
> > > > > track.

> > > > > Dampers are a tricky subject.  They are only in use when the
chassis
> > is
> > > > > moving vertically so they do not affect steady acceleration,
steady
> > > > > braking, or steady cornering.  What they affect is throttle
> > application
> > > > > and release, brake application and release, chassis roll rate at
> > corner
> > > > > entry, and chassis unrolling rate at corner exit.  In those
> > situations,
> > > > > a stiffer bump damper acts like a stiffer spring, but a stiffer
> > rebound
> > > > > damper acts like a softer spring, because it reduces the normal
> force
> > on
> > > > > the tire in those situations.  So you can use dampers to fix
> transient
> > > > > handling problems (<cough> GPL <cough>) but it gets tricky because
> any
> > > > > change affects all those situations, and because getting too far
> apart
> > > > > in bump/rebound settings can cause the ground clearance to change
> > > > > dramatically during transient situations.  My personal preference,
> > which
> > > > > really applies only to typical mid-engine cars, is to use slightly
> > > > > higher rebound damping than bump damping, and to use the same
> damping
> > > > > rates front and rear.  Since I use rear springs that are only
> slightly
> > > > > higher rate than the fronts, this results in the rear being
slightly
> > > > > underdamped relative to the front, which preserves good steering
> > control
> > > > > and still keeps the rear loose enough to put the power down.

> > > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:Icq%8.144669$uw.89617@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> > > > > >   When I 'try' and build a setup, for a road course, I usually
> > follow
> > > > > this
> > > > > > method.
> > > > > > 1.  run some laps with a baseline setup to check gearing.
> > > > > >  2.  adjust gearing
> > > > > >  3.  then look at tire temps and fiddle with the air pressure to
> get
> > a
> > > > > nice
> > > > > > inside to outside progression.
> > > > > >  4.  Then look at the track's main turns and decide if taking a
> > little
> > > > > > negative camber out of one side will help it turn.
> > > > > >  5.  check air pressures again...
> > > > > >  6.  Sometimes fool with the wings.....
> > > > > >   7...NOW I'M LOST>....
> > > > > >   There are bumpstops, springs, shocks...and I haven't a clue
how
> > > > > those help
> > > > > > me at each individual track.
> > > > > > (fyi...this is all based on the FIA V3 GT2001 mod for F1 2001
but
> in
> > > > > GENERAL
> > > > > > this should apply to most road course sims right?)
> > > > > >   What BENEFIT does adjusting the springs give me?  Why do I
RAISE
> > the
> > > > > fast
> > > > > > rebound or lower it?
> > > > > > And ditto for the slow rebound........
> > > > > > <skull cap is open awaiting knowledge>
> > > > > > dave henrie

> > Gennelmen,

> > Two points:

> > 1. Lap times are a poor way to tell if the change (singular; never make
> more
> > than one at once) you just wrought is having the desired effect.  Yes,
you
> > may be faster just because you're more familiar with the track...or you
> just
> > got lucky (more of a factor if you're not metronomically consistent).
As
> > Doug Arnao suggested a long time ago, tire temps are your best setup
clue.
> > Just remember that the inside temps should be a degree or two higher
than
> > the outside temps so you know you're taking advantage of camber thrust,
> and
> > on fast courses (Reims, ovals), the center-tread temp should be one or
two
> > degrees higher still to take advantage of an overinflated tire's lower
> > rolling resistance (e.g., RF: 220\222\218).

>    Rats/// !!  I HAD just such a tire temp and thought I should get the
> middle one down a notch...grrrr back to the drawing board.

> > 2. You know you've got the right setup when the car is easy to drive
> > (providing you've complied w. 1., above).  I used to think that there
were
> > fast setups and then there were easy setups (a la NASCAR), but if you're
> > uncomfortable with a setup, it's unlikely you'll be able to extend
> yourself
> > into the uncharted territory neccessary to set new personal bests.
> > Conversely, with a setup you find easy to drive at 7 or 8 tenths, it
will
> > almost always also be easy to drive at 9 and 10 tenths, which is where
you
> > need to be to get to the next level (or at least into The Zone).

> > Ultimately, you may be one of those poor souls who can't tell the
> difference
> > between a good setup and a bad one, in which case don't quit your day
job.
> > I'm not a terribly good driver, but I can tell if a setup is right for
me
> by
> > the time I'm half out of the pits.  Well, certainly after a couple of
> turns
> > (and well before the end of the first lap--hint: GPL setups should
always
> > oversteer before the tires warm up...and probably after, too).

> > --Steve

>   That is indeed a big problem of mine.  That is why I try to find one
> trick, like opening up the differential, and then use it everywhere.
> I do know when I load up a Hutuu settup that I will be lucky to exit the
> pits still pointing in the proper direction, so I do know a really good
> setup when I see one,,(by that I mean I'm really bad with it...)
> dave henrie

> Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how the
> various cars behave ?

> -Larry

> > > Goy,

> > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> guide
> > I
> > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
might
> > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> Henrie,
> > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come with
> one
> > of
> > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

> >   Yes indeedy.  I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap in
> > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> >    I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
settings
> > do,  once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.  I
> > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them from
> > track to track.
> > dave henrie

> > I have that book.  I think.

> > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how
the
> > various cars behave ?

> > -Larry

> > > > Goy,

> > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> > guide
> > > I
> > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> might
> > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> > Henrie,
> > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come
with
> > one
> > > of
> > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

> > >   Yes indeedy.  I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap
in
> > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> > >    I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
> settings
> > > do,  once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.  I
> > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them
from
> > > track to track.
> > > dave henrie

> > I have that book.  I think.

> > Is that the thin one where the guy talks about all the tracks, and how
the
> > various cars behave ?

> > -Larry

> > > > Goy,

> > > > The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy
> > guide
> > > I
> > > > wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I
> might
> > > > recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> > > > Seriously, I was directing my comment to the thread-starter, Dave
> > Henrie,
> > > > who's been around long enuf that his version of GPL must've come
with
> > one
> > > of
> > > > the rare tree-based editions of "Four-Wheel Drift."

> > >   Yes indeedy.  I have, though, mailed my ICR2 book off to some chap
in
> > > Euroland.(it's been a couple of years, cain't remember his name)
> > >    I guess I'm just not clear enough on what the large number of
> settings
> > > do,  once I get close, then making changes seems to often backfire.  I
> > > generally learn one or two setup gimmicks per sim and transfer them
from
> > > track to track.
> > > dave henrie

> Goy,

> The only book that applies to this discussion would be the strategy guide I
> wrote for GPL (unless you're getting 'blow-overs,' in which case I might
> recommend "PC Pilot," Avon, 1994). ;o)

> Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from
> track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their
> Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but
> average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get.  Tailoring our
> setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens in sight.

> > Again, a really fantastic driver really doesn't need to change much from
> > track to track (Clark & Hill could only change the top 2 gears in their
> > Lotus 49s in '67, and rarely fiddled with springs, shox or bumpers), but
> > average drivers like thee & me need all the help we can get.  Tailoring
our
> > setups to the nuances of each track is one way to keep the aliens in
sight.

> Indeed, there was interview with one of Clark's mechanics in an English
> magazine a couple of years ago, might have been "Car", and he claimed
> that except for the gearing they only changed the setup twice on Clark's
> car during the whole 67 season, both of which he disliked immensely and
> asked them to change it back

> Personally I believe people are too hung up on setups and spend too much
> time chasing the "perfect" setup, time that would be much better spent
> trying to get the the most out of a decent "baseline" setup, which if
> put to good use would take you to within a second or two of a very good
> time at that particular track anyway

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> http://www.theuspits.com

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
> --Groucho Marx--