rec.autos.simulators

>>I finally played RBR, and it is easily the most difficult racing game I have
>>ever played. I have not crashed my car more in a racing game since way back
>>when I first played GPL. And yet it is not really frustrating , but loads of
>>fun in spite of all of my off track excursions. I played it for 3 hours
>>straight the first time, and did not even notice the time. Awesome game. I
>>think that it will be a long time til I master this racer, very steep
>>learning curve compared to any other sim I have played. I thought it would
>>be no problem, since I have been playing sims for years, including
>>GPL,Nascar 2003, Colin mcrae rally 2004, GTR demo, among other sims.
>>However, this game has me driving with great caution, like a novice driver,
>>and yet is still fun. I can only occasionally manage to execute a decent
>>power slide, which I could easily do with other rally sims. Anyways, if you
>>have not already played this sim, it is worth the money.

> It looks like loads of fun. But if memory serves me correctly, it has
> no***pit view. That alone would keep me from buying it. I ran the
> demo, and was impressed with the graphics. But I just can't bring
> myself to drive from the roof view.

> It has a***pit view.

> Brian

> > RBR is incredible.  I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
> > it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003.  It's
> > incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
> > with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.

> Right then - some RBR discussion.

> There's actually a lot of RBR discussion on the web boards at BHM and RSC.
> Maybe it attracts mostly a younger generation who just weren't about in
the
> days of newsgroups, and simply don't know/care that this group exists?
> Anyway - this is not what I wish to discuss.

> For me, RBR was the holy grail that I had been awaiting for 10 years. I'm
a
> former club level rally driver, and had always preferred this genre to
> circuit racing. Rally Trophy was the first decent attempt at a SIM - and I
> mastered it religiously, but it was "not quite there" physics wise. A very
> dedicated group of people over at no-grip.net have developed a new physics
> model for Rally Trophy, but it simply doesn't compare with the
ultra-realism
> of RBR.

> When I first loaded up RBR, I found that I was reasonably quick on the
very
> loose surfaces that reflected my own experiences (snow/wet gravel), just
by
> driving the car as I would in real life. That was such an ecstatic
> experience!

> However, the defining quality of RBR is one I have also seen with GPL and
> very few other Sims - the ability for individual techniques to be used
> according to driver preferences, as opposed to one fastest way to drive as
> dictated by the software. I have learnt much about real handling and how
> other people drive by studying replays, and having the luxury of changing
my
> own style without risking real world "offs". Looking at say the top 20
> replays of any one stage, you'll see 10-15 different styles - all within a
> few seconds of each other. Its more than just setting the car up for
> understeer or oversteer - the individual driver's style is apparent in all
> aspects of the driving.

> The learning curve has been amazing! Like many RBR drivers, I thought I
was
> pretty good until I started trying to drive hard ;-). Even with my
previous
> experience, driving a 300 HP WRC class car is a whole new learning curve.
I
> have had several breakthroughs over the months, where my brain suddenly
> finds a faster way to drive and my times come down. Rather than a gradual
> improvement of a few 10th every day, I find that I plateau for a week or
> two, maybe with a little frustration, then suddenly find another 5-10
> seconds on a stage.

> Mastering the tightening sweepers on narrow loose stages such as Perka
> Menoko was a real thrill. The replays showed the car in a 4 wheel drift
most
> of the time, with the front wheels constantly moving from positive to
> opposite lock to fine tune the car, with the actual cornering angle
dictated
> by the increasing rear slip angle as the curve tightens up. When I next
saw
> a rally on TV  - I see exactly the same thing with the pros, and have an
> even greater appreciation of "being there".

> Another great skill to master on RBR is one I have used often in real
life -
> constant scando flicks through esses. This doesn't just require thinking
and
> acting a corner ahead, but actually setting the line and speed two curves
> ahead - especially on snow or wet tracks.

> Having said all this, I'm afraid that I'm pessimistic about the future of
> RBR, for a number of reasons.

> Firstly, the software is very "locked down" and almost impossible to mod
in
> terms of additional tracks or different types of car. The best we have
seen
> are converting some stages to/from tarmac and gravel, and a few new car
> skins. Whilst the car skins look great - what I really care about is the
> physics. New physics models are claimed - but these appear to be nothing
> more than changes to the default handing of the car as per what can be
done
> with the car tuning menus.

> Secondly, the development company was sold shortly after the release of
RBR,
> and many of the developers left. There is little chance of a new version
of
> RBR in the same way as the Colin McRae series.

> My third concern is purely personal speculation. I suspect that
> commercially, the title has not had anywhere near the success of CMR, or
> other mainstream games/Sims. This was to be expected, given the niche
market
> appeal. However, future development is driven by hard commercial
realities,
> not a vocal minority of fans.

> I think the lack of online play was mistake. I regularly use RBR-NET,
> however, it can't replicate the quality of a designed-in online
experience.
> I understand perfectly that rallying is all about racing the clock, not
> other people directly, but ghost racing can achieve this in a time
> compressed way. Frankly, if there was an excellent built-in module that
> allowed spectating and standard 2 minute intervals between cars, I would
> happily wait my turn whilst watching the competitors online.

> The final concern is in respect of the sensitive area of Richard Burn's
> health and ability to further participate  in the future development of
RBR.
> Richard put a lot of personal effort into this SIM - pushing hard for the
> realism angle. As a former world champion who was at the peak of his
career
> when the game was produced, he had the power to dictate his will. Also,
even
> if the game never made a profit, the loss could be underwritten by his
team
> and sponsors as a way of further promoting him within the sport. I can
only
> hope that Richard will make a full recovery and be further involved
> promoting sim rallying in future. The good news is that he successfully
> underwent an operation this week to remove excess tumour growth from his
> brain. Good luck Richard!

> Regards,
> Tim

>> > RBR is incredible.  I'm surprised it doesn't get more discussion here,
>> > it's imho by far the best sim that's come out since N2003.  It's
>> > incredible that Warthog went from Rally Champ Xtreme to making a game
>> > with a tire model that's Papy-like in quality and detail.

>> Right then - some RBR discussion.

>> There's actually a lot of RBR discussion on the web boards at BHM and
>> RSC.
>> Maybe it attracts mostly a younger generation who just weren't about in
> the
>> days of newsgroups, and simply don't know/care that this group exists?
>> Anyway - this is not what I wish to discuss.

>> For me, RBR was the holy grail that I had been awaiting for 10 years. I'm
> a
>> former club level rally driver, and had always preferred this genre to
>> circuit racing. Rally Trophy was the first decent attempt at a SIM - and
>> I
>> mastered it religiously, but it was "not quite there" physics wise. A
>> very
>> dedicated group of people over at no-grip.net have developed a new
>> physics
>> model for Rally Trophy, but it simply doesn't compare with the
> ultra-realism
>> of RBR.

>> When I first loaded up RBR, I found that I was reasonably quick on the
> very
>> loose surfaces that reflected my own experiences (snow/wet gravel), just
> by
>> driving the car as I would in real life. That was such an ecstatic
>> experience!

>> However, the defining quality of RBR is one I have also seen with GPL and
>> very few other Sims - the ability for individual techniques to be used
>> according to driver preferences, as opposed to one fastest way to drive
>> as
>> dictated by the software. I have learnt much about real handling and how
>> other people drive by studying replays, and having the luxury of changing
> my
>> own style without risking real world "offs". Looking at say the top 20
>> replays of any one stage, you'll see 10-15 different styles - all within
>> a
>> few seconds of each other. Its more than just setting the car up for
>> understeer or oversteer - the individual driver's style is apparent in
>> all
>> aspects of the driving.

>> The learning curve has been amazing! Like many RBR drivers, I thought I
> was
>> pretty good until I started trying to drive hard ;-). Even with my
> previous
>> experience, driving a 300 HP WRC class car is a whole new learning curve.
> I
>> have had several breakthroughs over the months, where my brain suddenly
>> finds a faster way to drive and my times come down. Rather than a gradual
>> improvement of a few 10th every day, I find that I plateau for a week or
>> two, maybe with a little frustration, then suddenly find another 5-10
>> seconds on a stage.

>> Mastering the tightening sweepers on narrow loose stages such as Perka
>> Menoko was a real thrill. The replays showed the car in a 4 wheel drift
> most
>> of the time, with the front wheels constantly moving from positive to
>> opposite lock to fine tune the car, with the actual cornering angle
> dictated
>> by the increasing rear slip angle as the curve tightens up. When I next
> saw
>> a rally on TV  - I see exactly the same thing with the pros, and have an
>> even greater appreciation of "being there".

>> Another great skill to master on RBR is one I have used often in real
> life -
>> constant scando flicks through esses. This doesn't just require thinking
> and
>> acting a corner ahead, but actually setting the line and speed two curves
>> ahead - especially on snow or wet tracks.

>> Having said all this, I'm afraid that I'm pessimistic about the future of
>> RBR, for a number of reasons.

>> Firstly, the software is very "locked down" and almost impossible to mod
> in
>> terms of additional tracks or different types of car. The best we have
> seen
>> are converting some stages to/from tarmac and gravel, and a few new car
>> skins. Whilst the car skins look great - what I really care about is the
>> physics. New physics models are claimed - but these appear to be nothing
>> more than changes to the default handing of the car as per what can be
> done
>> with the car tuning menus.

>> Secondly, the development company was sold shortly after the release of
> RBR,
>> and many of the developers left. There is little chance of a new version
> of
>> RBR in the same way as the Colin McRae series.

>> My third concern is purely personal speculation. I suspect that
>> commercially, the title has not had anywhere near the success of CMR, or
>> other mainstream games/Sims. This was to be expected, given the niche
> market
>> appeal. However, future development is driven by hard commercial
> realities,
>> not a vocal minority of fans.

>> I think the lack of online play was mistake. I regularly use RBR-NET,
>> however, it can't replicate the quality of a designed-in online
> experience.
>> I understand perfectly that rallying is all about racing the clock, not
>> other people directly, but ghost racing can achieve this in a time
>> compressed way. Frankly, if there was an excellent built-in module that
>> allowed spectating and standard 2 minute intervals between cars, I would
>> happily wait my turn whilst watching the competitors online.

>> The final concern is in respect of the sensitive area of Richard Burn's
>> health and ability to further participate  in the future development of
> RBR.
>> Richard put a lot of personal effort into this SIM - pushing hard for the
>> realism angle. As a former world champion who was at the peak of his
> career
>> when the game was produced, he had the power to dictate his will. Also,
> even
>> if the game never made a profit, the loss could be underwritten by his
> team
>> and sponsors as a way of further promoting him within the sport. I can
> only
>> hope that Richard will make a full recovery and be further involved
>> promoting sim rallying in future. The good news is that he successfully
>> underwent an operation this week to remove excess tumour growth from his
>> brain. Good luck Richard!

>> Regards,
>> Tim

> After reading the message about lackof discussion here, I thought I'd put
> some effort into writing a decent article, to see if I could generate a bit
> of discussion. Unfortunatly, yours was the only reply. However, this may be
> because my message was "buried" in the reply of a thread, rather than
> starting a new thread.

> Anyway, yeah - new tracks would be fantastic. Imagine Pikes Peak - emulating
> Ari Vatenen!

> I might have to wait 2-3 years, but I'm sure something else will come along.

> Cheers,
> Tim