On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:59:31 -0600, m...@runningcook.com wrote:
I'm finally going to get off of lurk mode and into this little
debate:
First off, a bit of background on myself:
I've been racing almost anything with wheels (and some things
without) for as long as I can remember, starting with mini bikes
(remember those?) back when I was around 6 or so. I've raced
motocross (back in the '70's), karts (also in the '70's) and
finally gave it all up when it just got too damned expensive to
play with the big boys with the big bucks.
I got back into racing through autocross events in the last few
years. Dusted off my driving skills and managed to do rather
decently at it over the last few years. In '96, my first year
back behind the wheel competitively, I started out in novice
class with a bone-stock Miata. I won novice class my first time
out, but was 8 seconds behind the overall class winner. By the
time the season was half done I was still winning in novice, but
was still behind the class leaders....but now only by less than a
second per run. By August (and some 120+ runs of extra experience
in the same car) I was now only .007 off the fastest guys.
I managed to win the season points champ. in C Stock (novice)
and for 1997 moved up to C Street Prepared (allowing me to change
springs, sway bars, etc.). In '97 I managed entered 16 races in
our region...winning 8, with 6 2nd place, a 3rd, and a 5th. (3 of
the events I had fastest time of day for all classes at the
event.) I won the season points champ. by 2 points (that 5th
place finish) over a fella with a very quick Sentra SE-R with all
the hot parts. I also raced out of my region with a local area
sports car club and won CSP all 5 times out, and taking event FTD
all 5 times. I'm rather familiar with car setups and such, and I
believe I am reasonably capable of driving a car to it's
limits...with having enough seat time to become familiar with the
car and it's capabilities and limits.
Now, on to sims:
I've also been a computer geek of sorts for the last 20 years,
and having been such, I was naturally drawn to driving
simulators, starting with the original "Pole Position" from Atari
on the 8-bit machines way back in 1984 or so. The original "Test
Drive" for the Atari ST back in 1986 was a giant leap forward, as
were some of the other "sims" to come down the road over the
years. However, none of them have ever seemed much more than an
arcade game to me...even some of the ones which I see folks
raving about in this n.g.
I tried ICR2, and found it to be rather unrealistic. N2 seemed
to be much more "believe able" to my tastes, but even then
something was missing, and that something was being able to power
slide a car predictably at it's limits. It seems that for the
most part, all "sims" understeer to me. I think this comes from a
sim's inherent limit, that being it's ability to convey that
actual feeling of speed to the driver. I don't think it's
something that will ever be easily overcome on a 2-D
screen...it's something that can only be experienced in a real
car on a real course with real walls/trees/armco/hay bales. The
corner coming up fast....wait...TOO FAST..the honest-to-God "oh
shit, this is gonna HURT!..." is missing, and that can't be
recreated (and thankfully for most sim "drivers" out there, it
won't be!). Until then most of us will overcook the turns and
understeer our way into whatever off track object awaits us.
I see the constant griping about how "this is unrealistic" vs.
brand x, or brand y , etc. Let me tell you this, based upon my
driving experiences, and I'll say no, I haven't driven an F1 car,
nor anything close to it, but GPL is the closest thing I've seen
to the "real" thing of driving a car at it's limits...any car!. I
was able to load the software, set up the controls, and promptly
hit damn near every off-track obstacle there is/was at the
Glen...and loved every minute of it! For those naysayers out
there, quit your complaining...this *is* realistic.
Until someone comes out with a hydraulically operated chair that
gives real time "seat of the pants" feedback about a car's
adhesion (or lack thereof), this is a close as it gets. I was
able to immediately get a "feel" for the way the car behaved on
the track...quite unlike the totally disconnected lack of feel in
the other "sims".
For those who need more realism, try an experiment:
Grab the car of your choice and start making laps...when you
overcook the corner and do a bit of "agricultural racing" and hit
a hay bale (they are rather solid in the real world, even when
dry), take a rubber hammer and smack yourself a few times in the
face and arms...go ahead, get some good bruises so you won't
forget to take a corner a bit easier the next time. Now, go back
to the paddock and change cars to your backup car, since you just
wasted your primary car (remember, it's now a different car, even
if the setup is identical, it won't drive just the same way). If
you crash again, smack yourself a few dozen more times with the
hammer (if it's a really good wreck, like a few end over ends,
break an arm while you're at it). If you survived the physical
abuse end of it, take a week off from driving the sim, since you
now have no car to drive anyway. Your mechanics will call you
when it's ready for you to tear up again (if you're lucky...you
keep tearing up equipment and you'll soon be out of a ride
period.) Maybe now you'll approach driving with a honest to God
this shit is real attitude. (I'm sure there are loads of Senna
fans who wished to God there was something as simple as <Shift -
R> for him.)
> Edwin do you REALLY think that just because GPL is modeled to drive the
>way it does, that this proves how brave they were back then? I can't believe
>you are that gullible. The letters t-r-e-e are not the same thing as an
>actual tree growing in the ground! It only proves Papy can make a sim that
>uses LOTS of drift.
I personally think Papy hit it right on the head....those cars
can and will drift like that if you let them. Going fast in a car
with a terrible rear weight bias and way more horsepower than
grip is (and should be) a sobering experience, and one not to be
taken lightly. With that much weight on the rear end, it's going
to try to swap ends every time you hit the brakes too hard or
downshift with a bit too much speed for the downshift...it's also
going to drift with throttle application and steer as much with
the throttle as with the wheel.
This sim will take loads of time to master, mainly because it's
so damned unforgiving of mistakes, and yet we have it easy...we
just <Shift - R> and we're fixed as good as new. Learning the
limits of the car and the track shouldn't be so easy as crashing
our way to good times....there should be a price to pay for haste
and mistakes. I've put about 5 hours in so far, and I'm down to
consistent 1: 17's with a blast at 1:13 (drifting all the way
around and grinning ear to ear). I know it'll take me a good 10
more hours to go 1:12 consistent, and probably 50+ hours to be
sub 1:10 with no off track excursions.)
As for arcade driving being fast, smooth will end up being
fastest, but it'll still be in a 4 wheel drift darn near all the
way around the track, and that is not an easy thing to master
given the one obvious flaw of any sim...the lack of "seat of the
pants" feel. GPL does give the driver more visual cues than
anything out there so far...it's up to the driver to make the
best of them.
As for respecting the drivers of thses machines? Hell, yes. I
seriously doubt that in today's world of aerodynamics and
computer controlled everything, most of today's drivers would be
picking their teeth out of the nearest tree for trying to drive
these crude beasts with the same kind of style as they do today's
cars. I think Senna and Shumacher might have been competitive
back then, but most others probably wouldn't be able to qualify,
much less race. These cars required *drivers*, not someone to sit
behind the wheel and aim it more or less in the right direction.
I've got Nomex, so flame away if you must.
Just my $0.02 (and perhaps a bit more)
Regards to all,
Doc Wynne
CSP #25 Miata
TRSCCA Webmaster
http://www.trscca.org
--
Rubber Chickens lay those little plastic Easter Eggs.
