rec.autos.simulators

by **Kevin Anderso** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I think you need to consider the fact that you may not have the skill to
drive this sim yet.It takes a lot of hours to master these sims. I remeber
my first lap with N2. I can turn 1m 13 sec laps smooth as silk no wheel
lockups, no offroad excursions, a little tail sliding but all very
controllable.
I also can turn 1 m 18 sec laps completely out of control. The difference
is, how focused I am.

It's all a matter of driving style, You may be trying to hard.

I can't verify that this is an accurate sim of a 1960's F1 car, but I do
feel confident that this is an accurate sim of a 400hp, 1100lb car with poor
tires.

I never drove a 1960's Lotus but have driven a many motorcycles with a
similiar power to weight ratio, several drag cars and a couple of High HP
cars on street tires, and have found some of these to be just as impossible
to drive if lacking the experience.

--
Kevin Anderson

ICQ # 6769389
Oscar FB Div. 10

>I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm
>having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is
>more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus,
>Repco-Brabham or Eagle.

>I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1
>car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1
>footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate
>corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not

by **Mik** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> This isn't a black/white issue of GPL being either totally realistic,
>or totally unrealistic Byron, I'm suprised at the simple minded approach you
>are taking. The demo is interesting to drive, but its not above criticism.
>Now I know you love GPL like it was life itself, but don't take it personal
>that some people(like me) think GPL is a little biased towards 'showy' car
>dynamics. That dosen't mean I think its SHIT, or that its TOTALLY
>unrealistic,got it!

Finally, someone who has this thing in perspective! I too can't
believe people are defending this game so vigorously. It's pretty fun
to drive, but I think its going to suck for racing. It's just to hard
to run consistant laps. In 10 laps, my times will have a 10 sec range.
I know a bunch of you are going to say I need more practice.... true.
But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses.
They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to
be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives
like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after
lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on
a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this.

Bottom line IMO, there are 2 schools, Geoff Crammond and Papyrus. I
like the Crammond way. People who disagree.... hmmm...let me guess
which one you like.

by **Michael E. Carve** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

% Dude, the steering is different for many good reasons, so what?
% 'Going through a corner at full speed'...what are you TALKING about? A real
% car? GPL? a BMW? The program that we call GPL was written with an exagerrated
% amount of drifting in my opinion, and this novelty is at the same time very
% popular. And dude, I live on dirt roads and have a 440 Mopar, OK, so I know
% all about losing the back end when ever I want to.

I really think that if GPL had a full forcefeedback system installed
that could translate full***pit tilt, yaw, pitch, etc., you might
change your tune. What makes the demo seem "exaggerated" to you is the
absence of that feedback. However, Papy has put very minor cues that if
one takes the time to pickup help compensate for this. It's not
perfect, but it's the closest I've seen to date in an auto simulation.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **p tenhe** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm
> having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is
> more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus,
> Repco-Brabham or Eagle.

> I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1
> car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1
> footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate
> corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not
> even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion.

> When I see Formula 1600 novices try their hands out in one of those
> open-wheeled things, I do not see them meandering all over the track,
> desperately trying to stay in the racing groove, under acceleration,
> braking, at speed. Even as these novices gain speed they still maintain the
> racing line. With GPL, even if you start slow, it is still hard to keep in
> the groove.

> You can all refute me, but until someone with actual 60's racecar experience
> proves otherwise to me, I'll keep on taking the minority view -- GPL does
> not realistically portray the driving experience. In fact I'll go on and
> say that driving a 60's F1 car cannot be as difficult as driving this sim.
> Maybe someone should give Dan Gurney a copy of this sim and see what he has
> to say.

I have to agree with you somewhat. There is no doubt that GPL is hatd
to drive(maybe unrealisticly). My basic problem with the demo is it's
lack of visual clues of speed which makes driving too mechanical. The
sensation of speed and the perceived closure rate to turns are totally
unrealistic. I have absolutely no problems visualizing speed and
closure with GP2, IRC2 and N2. Although good laps on road courses do
require braking , turning and shifting points to be somewhat
mechanically applied in these sims, it is absolutely mandatory in GPL
and I takes some of the fun out of the game. I find it interesting that
after I spin or run off course when I think I'm going relatively slow
and go to the replay, the replay shows me going twice as fast as I
thought.
I know that I will get flamed for this,but IMHO this demo is not what it
is cracked up to be(I do realize it is a pre-alpha), it's just the new
kid on the block and with time you will see more and more criticism,
constructive or otherwise.

by **Tim - fusio** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>dude GP2 turn with the center of their car, not from their front wheels. Of
>course the steering is completely different. Also with a rear wheel drive
>car, there's no way in hell you can go through a corner at full speed
>without losing the back end (just try it with a BMW)

That depends, I think.
Practically any street car, (and surely something as domesticated as a
BMW) will be way biased towards understeer.
If you turn the wheel hard entering a turn, chances are you'll slide
the front wheels right across the track without ever breaking the back
loose. You need to use the throttle to and turn very hard to induce
oversteer. I have a 5 liter Mustang, which has a hideous frontal
weight bias, and it will still understeer, light ass-end and all.
Looking at the numbers, it should be an oversteering monster.

I haven't tried the GPL demo yet, but at the risk of being flogged, I
loved Sega Rally. I like real physics in sims, but that one is a blast
to drive and slide. The "feel" of the slides is very well done.

Tim

by **Micheal Smi** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>snip...
>They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to
>be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives
>like the cars are on ice....

What? I haven't noticed this. I have noticed that it takes a little
more finesse on the throttle and brake while trying to run a 2 ton car
around road courses. It is certainly easier to get consistency on
ovals but with a little work, you can do the same on the road courses.

Mike

by **Micheal Smi** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>>dude GP2 turn with the center of their car, not from their front wheels. Of
>>course the steering is completely different. Also with a rear wheel drive
>>car, there's no way in hell you can go through a corner at full speed
>>without losing the back end (just try it with a BMW)

What? You can't drive RWD through a corner at full throttle? I must
have missed a part of your post because this is just plain untrue.

Mike

by **ymenar** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Mike wrote :

So your whining at Papyrus because your not able to run consistent laps with
their titles ? I'm soo sorry you must be very close to dying because of
that. <sniff>

"In real racing, they turn lap within the tenths and hundredths of a sec. "
I agree.

Oookkkk..... So let's take the 20 best drivers on the NROS, put them on
Sears Point or the Glen, and make then race. You will find that your
statement is true, that the best drivers here can do laps within tenths of a
sec between each and other.

But it's on a Road Course of a Papyrus simulator ??? hmmm.. something must
be wrong here... some people are able. <grin>.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

by **ymenar** » Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Charles Mak wrote

Ok, I take your point.

But why are you judging the product because of the other people. Shouldn't
GPL be a personnal experience (especially the demo, there is no multiplayer
or AI capabilities). Why do you whine at Papyrus because of what the others
are doing ?

If you do 1:18 consistent laps in the demo with the GP car per example, what
is bad about this ? But because some other people you will never see do
1:07, this means the game is crap, doesn't mean anything to you anymore ??

I don't see your point here. Today, I saw at least 3 people whine at
Papyrus because they say the game is ruined because some poeple use some
arcadish style of racing. But if you don't use it, where's the bad ? Is
this some sort of jalousy, or maybe a lost of self-esteem that everybody is
having today ?. I dunno, something is wrong here...

Maybe I should whine against them, telling that their simulator sucks 'cause
I run consistent twenty 1:13 laps in a row. <vbfg> Oh well... back to the
NROS.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

rec.autos.simulators

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!