rec.autos.simulators

I undertand your point.  It just sims that there is no other way to achieve
a fast lap at Watkins Glen without resorting to driving arcade style.  This,
considering that the qualifying lap at this race in 1967 was in the range of
1:05.  And back then they didn't resort to 'arcade style: racing to achieve
those times.

What I'm saying is that anyone who can (and probably will) achieve 1:05 will
only do it driving in a fiendishly arcady style.

This is the sad fact of GPL.

At the moment you're saying GPL is like driving on ice and you can't
control the car well enough to lap consistantly. I still can't either,
and i've probably clocked up around 25 hours inthe***pit so far,
and can lap at 1:08.5 on a good lap. Now, let's compare that to the
real racers at F1 or Indycar level out there. They've raced cars/karts
etc since they were 10 or so. They have thousands and thousands of
hours of seat time on a race track. Take F1 for an example - before
a F1 driver is given a licence to race in a genuine F1 race, they
have to clock up something like 2000-3000 miles in a F1 car in
practice sessions. That's why they lap so consistantly. Once you or
anyone has done 2000 miles in GPL, then still complains about not
being able to lap consistantly, I'll give their opinion more weight:)
Meanwhile i still think GPL feels the best of any sim to drive. I've
never raced myself, but I have a reasonably good idea what it
should feel like since i've driven cars for over 7 years. And i've
seen too many sim drivers who actaully race real cars complimenting
the GPL sim model.
I respect your opinion, but i ask that you give the sim quite a lot
more effort before you start carving it up as being too hard to drive.
Like CPR - i can't drive that for shit, but i simply haven't given
it enough of a go to start learning to control it, but i don't trash
it for being too hard to drive. I don't really like it, so i simply
don't drive it:)
Like anything, it takes a while to learn to drive a new car right
on the edge of control. It takes time to learn to feel all the
subtleties required to control the car on a fine edge.
I don't expect you learned to walk and then run in one week, right?:)
I play piano - it's taken me over 10 years to reach the level where i
am now, and i still consider myself just an ok player. like, i can't
play a 25 minute song perfectly, i always end up making some mistakes.
does that mean i trash the piano for being too hard to play? nope, i
just practice more.

cheers,
Grant.

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:40:22 +1200, Grant Reeve

Where to start.....

First off.... I never trashed it. I said it suffers the same problems
ICR 1/2 and Nascar 1/2 when it comes to road courses. I also said I
like the driving model in GP2 better than the way Papyrus does it.
It's what I like, obviously not what you like.

I played the hell out of the ICR1. I loved it. In fact, I was the
first person to break 1:04 at laguna(the old papyrus BBS used to keep
track of those things). But even with all the time and practice, it
was still harder than hell to turn lap after lap of consistant times.
Racing nose to tail is what make sims fun to me.... keeping it on the
road isn't. Crammond's way of doing things allows me to do that.
Papyrus's doesn't. In the papyrus sims, I spend way to much effort
keeping it off the wall, not racing with the other cars.

Does papyrus do it more realistic.... I don't know... never drove and
indycar or F1 car (7 years of driving experience doesn't mean squat).
But let's say for arguments sake they do. Regardless of how realistic
it is, they have yet to simulate how it really feels driving down the
road... ie - wind in the face, G's, the rear end breaking loose.
Because they can't simulate how the car feels, it makes the player
focus way to much on driving and too little on racing, IMO. I would
rather race.

If I'm going to spend 25 hours in the seat playing a "game". The vast
majority of the time better be enjoying the race.... not learning how
to drive the car.

With respect to to the years it takes to become an F1 driver, piano
player, etc... what's the point? This is a game, not real life. Would
you truely expect anyone to spend several years learning this or any
other game?

Bottom line.... I like racing crammond's semi-realistic model more
than racing papyrus' semi-realistic model. It's not a slam... it's my
opinion. I also hope GPL is really an alpha version, that way it could
possibly get better,IMO.

Now off to the only true Sim out there today..... StarCraft! :-)

I'm not taking anything personal! It seems many of you are comparing
GPL to CART/F1 cars which is just nonsense. In GPL you have NO
downforce, grooved hard compound tyres and twice the body weight. Why
would you expect magnatraction? There are real race drivers here who say
the physics model is very impressive indeed. Have a read and have a
think about it.

    And the fools that do will get flamed just like you if it's as
obvious as this that they're just that hopeless. It took everyone hours
and hours to get good at sims like ICR2/GP2 and I thank Papy very much
for making GPL the same. It's what makes for greatness - not some stupid
arcade kiddy thing that is mastered in half an hour and boring you
shitless half an hour after that!

GP2 has been around a while and so far you've tried a pre-alpha demo
of GPL. Give yourself a chance to get good and then re-evaluate.

Cheers!
John

BS!! I just feel that you are frustrated and can't drive, I have run some 1m07s.
. blap being a 1m07.23..

I guess you have never driven a real car with handicaps?

And please don't even compare the sim to GP2, F1rs, ICr2, or cpr.. They all diff
er from one certain era..

Wha.. Here's your bottle.

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So, since you're the new "self proclaimed barometer" , I stand
corrected. It is a very good simulation of driving. My apologies to
the group.

Can you get a bit more arrogant?

Alan

I may be wrong, but I think this is due to the fact that in a real
racecar steering becomes harder as speed increases, a fact principally
caused by the inertial forces of rotation of the wheels.  And also if
you turn the wheel let's say 15 degrees while you're running slowly
and 15 degrees when you're going fast, your wheels aren't supposed to
turn to the same angle in both cases, they should turn less when
you're going fast because there are huge forces that fight their
movement.

Since you cannot move the steering as fast as when you're moving
slowly, it is possible to make slight corrections on your trajectory
that are based on pure reflexes.  I don't think that this is possible
with the steering wheels we use, because our reflexes cause too strong
inputs to the wheel.

I think what Papy's driving sims need is a "reduce with speed" option,
a la GP2.  That would make the car much more controleable when you're
on a straightaway in my opinion.  Anyone agrees with me on that?

A. Renault

Gilles Villeneuve
Keke Rosberg
Jean Alesi
Michael Schumacher
Alan Jones
Ayrton Senna
Jim Clark

If you have seen any of these guys in action, you'll notice one common
thing:
-If their car drives like a dog, they pick it up by the scruff of the
neck, and pull out a great laptime!! And how? By throwing it around!
They may not get the pole, but they sure as hell were far ahead of their
team.mates!
But since you were watching 1963 1.5 litre cars, and thinking there were
no difference to the 3-litre '69 cars, I think that you are probably
nosing through a book now.

(Chris did a great lap, but I'm not comparing him to any of the
above..hehehe)

Cheers,
Matt

--

Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)

"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
       -Cale Yarborough