rec.autos.simulators

> > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are.  I can
> > certainly feel it in the demo"

> >   Feel ?  You mean something other than ff ?

> Even without FF steering response is as much a feel thing as a visual
thing,
> IMO.  You learn to relate a certain resistance force (spring or otherwise)
> with a certain steering response.  When that relationship changes you know
> you are going over the edge of the tire envelope.

> Youre taking this realism thing waaaay to far.  There's is absolutely NO
WAY
> to simulate G-forces in my recliner (even FF and hydraulics are merely
> effects).  As such the ONLY way to know whats REALLY going on in our
VIRTUAL
> car is by visual or sound ques.  Visual ques can only do so much and dont
> give the type of feedback required to know when your pushing the tires to
> the limit.  Once youre over the limit yea visual or FF is adequate but
then
> it's too late.

> It could be a limitation of the underlying game engine which makes all
this
> talk a mute point.  If it isn't then at the bare minimum it should be user
> selectable.  If you don't want the sound ques on fine turn it off, but at
> the least if it's possible I should be able to turn em on without it being
> called an ARCADE game.

> Do you turn off the tire sounds in NR2003?  Even if you could Id seriously
> doubt that anyone would as it gives such good feedback as to whats going
on
> with the car.

> Mitch

> > I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light
> weight
> > driving games too.  But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and
in
> > that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds.

> b) a message saying that my PC was "below the minimum requirements".
> Unfortunately, I have no idea what the minimum requirements are supposed
to be
> (where does it say?); nevertheless, the game allowed me to play it, and I
didn't

with
> 512MB RAM (PC-133 DIMMs), an NVidia Geforce2 MX video card with 32MB RAM,
and a
> Philips PSC-706 Acoustic Edge sound card (and don't tell me to upgrade,
it's not
> in my current short-term plans, except for the video card),and everything
was
> stunning. Of course, with a full grid things may be different... or maybe
SimBin
> just thought nobody would attempt to run it with such a configuration and
didn't
> bother testing it.

> --
> __________   ____---____       Marco Antonio  Checa  Funcke
> \_________D /-/---_----'      Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
>        _H__/_/                      http://machf.tripod.com
>       '-_____|(

> remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying

> No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As a
> reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
square
> inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in the
> 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing
tires
> there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are
> still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire you
get
> squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread.
> With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding.
> That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at any
> track or from any race broadcast.

> The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships for
> the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is represented
> there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
racers,
> sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for one
guy
> in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
sliding
> across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series cars,
or
> > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> >     Cars that also use slicks.

> I have that Elise vs. Corvette video at Nurburgring and the engine sound
and
> bounce and whine is so similar its eerie. This game is amazing

> > All the in car footage Ive seen clearly shows a stiffly sprung cars
bounce
> > all over the place.  Can barely tell at all from the circuits camera's.

> > Mitch

>     Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that
> modern slicks don't squeal.  In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used
> bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges.

>      And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and C***te in
'83
> and there was all kinds of squealing.

> > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As a
> > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
> square
> > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> > difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in
the
> > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing
> tires
> > there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are
> > still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire you
> get
> > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread.
> > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding.
> > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at
any
> > track or from any race broadcast.

> > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships
for
> > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is represented
> > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
> racers,
> > sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for one
> guy
> > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
> sliding
> > across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> > >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series
cars,
> or
> > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> > >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> > >     Cars that also use slicks.

>     Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that
> modern slicks don't squeal.  In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used
> bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges.

>      And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and C***te in
'83
> and there was all kinds of squealing.

> > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As a
> > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
> square
> > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> > difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in
the
> > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing
> tires
> > there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are
> > still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire you
> get
> > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread.
> > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding.
> > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at
any
> > track or from any race broadcast.

> > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships
for
> > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is represented
> > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
> racers,
> > sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for one
> guy
> > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
> sliding
> > across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> > >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series
cars,
> or
> > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> > >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> > >     Cars that also use slicks.

> In the mid-Sixties, I was sitting by the brook going under Turn 1 at Indy
> once while Parnelli Jones was practicing in "Silent Sam," the STP turbine
> car.  Without the usual roar of the engine (which was disconcerting
enough),
> the loudest sound came from the creaking of the tub.  The bias-ply slicks
> barely made a "whisk-whisk" noise.  Since then, radials have only gotten
> quieter.

> >     Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that
> > modern slicks don't squeal.  In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used
> > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges.

> >      And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and C***te in
> '83
> > and there was all kinds of squealing.

> > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As a
> > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
> > square
> > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> > > difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in
> the
> > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing
> > tires
> > > there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they
are
> > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire
you
> > get
> > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire
tread.
> > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual
sliding.
> > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at
> any
> > > track or from any race broadcast.

> > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships
> for
> > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is
represented
> > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
> > racers,
> > > sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for
one
> > guy
> > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
> > sliding
> > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> > > >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series
> cars,
> > or
> > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> > > >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> > > >     Cars that also use slicks.

> Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english if
squeal
> mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal car
and
> making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even sliding
> heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type) and
feel
> is like the *** gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Once you
> get near or past the maximum amount of grip,  you can really feel the
force
> applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is all mix
with
> sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hard rather
> then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression and gets
> harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosing the
> grip, you may  never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and i think
> sound should compensate for that.

> But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel)  i'm talking about is
> the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip
feel
> i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start to skid
> or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there is 2
> different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive the game,
if
> you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tire sounds to
> 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll
> understand what i mean.

> I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could be a
good
> indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal.

> Eric L

> >     Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that
> > modern slicks don't squeal.  In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used
> > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges.

> >      And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and C***te in
> '83
> > and there was all kinds of squealing.

> > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As a
> > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
> > square
> > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> > > difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in
> the
> > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing
> > tires
> > > there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they
are
> > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire
you
> > get
> > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire
tread.
> > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual
sliding.
> > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at
> any
> > > track or from any race broadcast.

> > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships
> for
> > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is
represented
> > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
> > racers,
> > > sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for
one
> > guy
> > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
> > sliding
> > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> > > >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series
> cars,
> > or
> > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> > > >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> > > >     Cars that also use slicks.

>   I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some clue besides
> visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this
> thread, ie, wheel.  To late by then).

> > Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english if
> squeal
> > mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal car
> and
> > making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even
sliding
> > heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type) and
> feel
> > is like the *** gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Once
you
> > get near or past the maximum amount of grip,  you can really feel the
> force
> > applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is all mix
> with
> > sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hard rather
> > then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression and
gets
> > harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosing the
> > grip, you may  never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and i think
> > sound should compensate for that.

> > But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel)  i'm talking about
is
> > the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip
> feel
> > i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start to
skid
> > or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there is
2
> > different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive the game,
> if
> > you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tire sounds
to
> > 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll
> > understand what i mean.

> > I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could be a
> good
> > indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal.

> > Eric L

> > >     Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that
> > > modern slicks don't squeal.  In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used
> > > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges.

> > >      And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and C***te
in
> > '83
> > > and there was all kinds of squealing.

> > > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.  As
a
> > > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR.  Not trying to be a
> > > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per
> > > square
> > > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR.  Maybe that's the
> > > > difference, I don't know.  I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back
in
> > the
> > > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any
squealing
> > > tires
> > > > there either.  Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they
> are
> > > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue.  With a production tire
> you
> > > get
> > > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire
> tread.
> > > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual
> sliding.
> > > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary
at
> > any
> > > > track or from any race broadcast.

> > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national
championships
> > for
> > > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year.  Every SCCA class is
> represented
> > > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports
> > > racers,
> > > > sedan and touring cars.  Lots of slicks.  No tire squeal except for
> one
> > > guy
> > > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it
> > > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was
> > > sliding
> > > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt.

> > > > >   Could be(your series examples)  I'm talking about Nascar series
> > cars,
> > > or
> > > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
> > > > >   And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

> > > > >     Cars that also use slicks.