rec.autos.simulators

by **Mitch_** » Tue, 04 May 2004 01:56:51

All the in car footage Ive seen clearly shows a stiffly sprung cars bounce
all over the place. Can barely tell at all from the circuits camera's.

Mitch

> >> Am i the only perosn that bounced into every braking area and bpounced
> > round
> >> every tight turn?
> >> If this is realistic then gtr drivers must feel sick with all the
> > bouncing
> >> and jumping around

> > If you look a little closer at the demo the info screens have
information
> > about every corner on the track. The ruts before the low speed corners
> > are
> > discussed.

> Whether they are intentional or not ive never seen a gtr car bouncing
round
> spa before :)

by **Jason Moy** » Tue, 04 May 2004 02:02:26

Also, for your outlap and your first lap at speed you don't have a
great deal of grip. Make sure you're doing at least 2 or 3 laps at
speed to give the tires and brakes time to get up to optimum
temperature. Even the default setup feels much better after a few
laps.

Jason

by **fredrickso** » Tue, 04 May 2004 02:29:42

I have that Elise vs. Corvette video at Nurburgring and the engine sound and
bounce and whine is so similar its eerie. This game is amazing

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 04 May 2004 02:40:02

Never said anything about FF. Steering response. How far you have to turn
the wheel to get a response. Ring a bell? Or do you use a gamepade?

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 04 May 2004 02:47:49

When I say squeal I am not talking about the loud ripping sound (for lack of
a better word) when you get close to the edge, I'm talking about a
distinctly louder high-pitched noise. Is that what you are talking about?
I went to the Valvoline runoffs last year, sat near a couple of different
turns, and except for one or two guys who were clearly pushing too hard, I
did not hear a single high pitched tire squeal. And these were all short
races, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for the guys to take it easy.
Same thing with karts, if you get it to squeal you are pushing it too hard.

by **Eric Leblan** » Tue, 04 May 2004 04:08:42

Yeah, know we gonna have to get a FFB wheel for GTR and keep the TSW for
papy.

They should simply do like in n2k3 a seperate sound volume for tire sound.
If you have a FFB then drop it down :-)

EL

> Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ?
Or
> I suppose now, the latest wearing your*** on a sleeve mantra will be,
> "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ?

> > Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can
> > certainly feel it in the demo. It's a subjective call, but personally I
> > prefer the way it is in the demo. In Papy sims I got used to pushing
the
> > car until the tires squeal, then when I started racing karts I had to
> > retrain myself to stop doing that because it was slowing me down. I can
> > handle that unnecessary tire squeal in an arcade game but if a sim is
> > claiming to be realistic then I would prefer that the tire squeal is
> > realistic also.

> > > I'm sorry dude, but when real racing, a combination of force,
vibration
> > and
> > > sounds make you feel how bad you are pushing it.

> > > Know understand that the demo is very good, just more tire sounds
would
> be
> > > better.

> > > EL

by JP » Tue, 04 May 2004 05:25:05

"Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can
certainly feel it in the demo"

Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ? If
you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute.

As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids like tire
squeal have nothing to do with realism.

> Never said anything about FF. Steering response. How far you have to
turn
> the wheel to get a response. Ring a bell? Or do you use a gamepade?

> > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ?
> Or
> > I suppose now, the latest wearing your*** on a sleeve mantra will be,
> > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ?

by JP » Tue, 04 May 2004 05:27:37

Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series cars, or
for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc.
And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal.

Cars that also use slicks.

> When I say squeal I am not talking about the loud ripping sound (for lack
of
> a better word) when you get close to the edge, I'm talking about a
> distinctly louder high-pitched noise. Is that what you are talking about?
> I went to the Valvoline runoffs last year, sat near a couple of different
> turns, and except for one or two guys who were clearly pushing too hard, I
> did not hear a single high pitched tire squeal. And these were all short
> races, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for the guys to take it easy.
> Same thing with karts, if you get it to squeal you are pushing it too
hard.

> > Uh, no. They squeal all the time during race, practice, whatever,
> > conditions, at tracks that are applicable(i.e., short tracks, etc.)
> > Sitting trackside, its easily heard.

by **Tony Rickar** » Tue, 04 May 2004 05:46:45

> They should simply do like in n2k3 a seperate sound volume for tire sound.
> If you have a FFB then drop it down :-)

I don't believe it is as simple as FFB replacing the tyre sound for some
people. We adapt to the missing physical sensation through visual and audio
cues. Plus of course the force feedback for thsoe with such devices. I am
sure it varies but for me the key is visual. The sensation of sliding is
provided by visual cues. I could drive without sound for cornering but need
it to manage wheelspin and gear changes. FFB has never helped me understand
what the car is doing. However, we each adapt in different ways and other's
primary cues for car behaviour will be different.

Therefore, I find Papy titles provide more feel than ISI ones. Those who's
first experiences with sims include FFB may differ greatly.

Cheers
Tony

by **Tony Rickar** » Tue, 04 May 2004 05:56:13

> "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can
> certainly feel it in the demo"

> Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ? If
> you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute.

The "seat of the pants" feel, which doesn't need FFB to make you feel
connected to the simulated vehicle.

I am not convinced realism is the be all and end all of simulations - as
massive a contradiction as it sounds :)

I believe there is a black art to convincing the brain of motion similar to
a real car devoid of any real physical motion. Without spending a fortune on
hydraulics the conveying feel is not simply a matter of keying in real world
physics. The feel factor contains some degree of fudging which is the black
art IMHO.

Cheers
Tony

by JP » Tue, 04 May 2004 07:06:13

> > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can
> > certainly feel it in the demo"

> > Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ?
If
> > you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute.

> The "seat of the pants" feel, which doesn't need FFB to make you feel
> connected to the simulated vehicle.

> > As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids like
> tire
> > squeal have nothing to do with realism.

> I am not convinced realism is the be all and end all of simulations - as
> massive a contradiction as it sounds :)

> I believe there is a black art to convincing the brain of motion similar
to
> a real car devoid of any real physical motion. Without spending a fortune
on
> hydraulics the conveying feel is not simply a matter of keying in real
world
> physics. The feel factor contains some degree of fudging which is the
black
> art IMHO.

> Cheers
> Tony

Exactly. Rereading my comment above sounds confusing <g> It was meant to
say that tire squeal in a game, whether realisitc or not compared to the
real car being simulated, is not a bad thing.

- Show quoted text -

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 04 May 2004 07:08:49

I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light weight
driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and in
that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds.

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 04 May 2004 07:17:43

Even without FF steering response is as much a feel thing as a visual thing,
IMO. You learn to relate a certain resistance force (spring or otherwise)
with a certain steering response. When that relationship changes you know
you are going over the edge of the tire envelope.

Cheap shot. An obvious typo. I suppose you never make typos?

Unless the game you are playing is being touted as a no-compromises sim.

Admittedly, as long as they have an arcade mode and driving aids then it
would be nice to also make it possible for the user to turn on a tire slip
sound as an aid. With all the other cool things they have done that would
not be unreasonable. But it should not be the default condition for the
*** sim mode.

by **mach** » Tue, 04 May 2004 07:25:38

Well, I just tried it a few minutes ago. I must say I'm impressed, both by the
graphical detail, sound effects and car response. The only inconvenients I
encountered were:

a) during install, it requires "at least 150MB" of swap space. This doesn't
refer to the maximum size you've assigned to your swap file, but to the
additional free sapce on the drive where your swap file is located, and I had
noticed it previously in F1C.

b) a message saying that my PC was "below the minimum requirements".
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the minimum requirements are supposed to be
(where does it say?); nevertheless, the game allowed me to play it, and I didn't

512MB RAM (PC-133 DIMMs), an NVidia Geforce2 MX video card with 32MB RAM, and a
Philips PSC-706 Acoustic Edge sound card (and don't tell me to upgrade, it's not
in my current short-term plans, except for the video card),and everything was
stunning. Of course, with a full grid things may be different... or maybe SimBin
just thought nobody would attempt to run it with such a configuration and didn't
bother testing it.

--
__________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke
\_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
_H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com
'-_____|(

remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying

by JP » Tue, 04 May 2004 07:29:47

Fair enough. But they're all games, call them anything you want. The
Papy games, including the latest(and gpl), all have tire squeal, so I don't
think theres a requirement for a game to be light weight to have it.

> I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light
weight
> driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and in
> that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds.

> > Exactly. Rereading my comment above sounds confusing <g> It was
meant
> to
> > say that tire squeal in a game, whether realisitc or not compared to the
> > real car being simulated, is not a bad thing.

rec.autos.simulators

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