rec.autos.simulators

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

Jo

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Jo » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00


>Ya, I would have been pretty pissed, the idea of getting the win95
>version took the edge off of 7 months of waiting...
>And guess what: this is what Ed is telling us. I frankly don't think
>it is too bad- in fact, I am really psyched to get a CD with the clean
>version on it!!!!

Only if it has the DOS version too on it too - I will not give up my
DOS version to get the Win95 version (which Papyrus repeatedly
promised for free on this newsgroup). On some computers/setups the
Win95 version sucks rocks. I want to try it (as I was promised), but I
don't want to give up my DOS-CD, since I am then screwed if I ever
need to re-install the DOS version.

Joe

Jo

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Jo » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00



>: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on
>: what Rick said.  Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said
>: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to
>: make.
>Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat.  Your
>company is known to monitor this newsgroup.  The intentions were also
>made known on American On-Line by other Papyrus representives than Rick.
>If the "official" decision was not to go through wth the plans we
>would/should have seen posts saying such.  
>I have followed the whole thing here on r.a.s. and on Papyrus's official
>AOL area.  Rick can not be left the one holding the bag.  This
>apparently was a "last minute" decision.  Papyrus/Sierra obviously does
>not want to spend the "man-hours" it would take to create a Win95
>upgrade/patch.  Instead they want us to pay them for costs plus a small
>margin to get the upgrade/patch.  I am willing to pay for postage,
>anything over and beyond that is totally uncalled for.  

I agree completely with your post. Many Papyrus employees promised the
Win95 patch would be downloadable, it clearly was a policy decision
that had been made by Papyrus. Overturned now, I suspect by pin-headed
bean counters at Sierra, who don't understand things like customer
loyalty and keeping promises.

The one person in all this who is clearly NOT to blame is Rick Genter,
and leaving him holding the bag (especially since he's left Papyrus)
is an extremely low blow, and competely uncalled for.

Ed, I know you're a decent and honest guy, but you owe Rick an
apology.

Joe

Craig Hopki

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Craig Hopki » Wed, 03 Jul 1996 04:00:00

On Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:32:07 -0400, Neil Yeatman


>  Here is Rick's old sig:
>  ----
>  Rick Genter
>  Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
>  Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

>  ----
>  => Does this say anywhere "The opinions expressed are my own and not those
>     of Papyrus Design Group, Inc." ???

>Nope...this says "I'm Rick Genter, and I'm speaking for Papyrus".  Does this
>make it legally binding?  Maybe.  Does it make it morally binding?  Absolutely.

>Rick wasn't the only Papyrus staffer monitoring this newsgroup.  If his
>statements were untrue, they would have been retracted months and months ago.

>Sierra/Papyrus better own up to this one.  

>It's bad enough you guys didn't put out the DOS patch back in December when you
>should have.  Not once have I seen a post from anybody at Papyrus say, "Sorry
>guys, we blew it, we have too much on our plate, and a schedule to meet".  All
>we ever got was, "The Patch will be out with the Windows95 release in mid
>June..wait for it".

>Is this going to be your attitude with Nascar2?  The product is out the door,
>let's dump the code and get on with the next project?  If so, I'll wait until
>it hits the $9.99 bargain bin, and then I'll shoplift it.

>Neil
>--
>Meek and obedient you follow the leader
>down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel..


>       Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

HEY  A MOB SEEMS TO BE FORMING.

Pass an application form and a pick handle please.....

:-)

Craig

******************************************************************************

Canberra, Australia

IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
******************************************************************************

Ed Mart

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Ed Mart » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00





>> >: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on
>> >: what Rick said.  Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said
>> >: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to
>> >: make.

>> >Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat.
>Snip!
>> We're not making Rick the scapegoat by any stretch of the imagination.
>> I'm just trying to let everyone know the situation & that we're trying
>> to take care of it as best we can.

>> Ed Martin
>> Producer, Series Director
>> NASCAR Racing League
>> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
>Note that the first statement above, "Rick was in no position to..." was
>made on July 1st, the first business day after Rick left the company.  Why
>didn't you speak to him about it prior to his leaving Papyrus?  Why did
>you wait until he left to say something like that?  
>  Here is Rick's old sig:
>  ----
>  Rick Genter
>  Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
>  Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

>  ----
>  => Does this say anywhere "The opinions expressed are my own and not those
>     of Papyrus Design Group, Inc." ???
>Nope...this says "I'm Rick Genter, and I'm speaking for Papyrus".  Does this
>make it legally binding?  Maybe.  Does it make it morally binding?  Absolutely.
>Rick wasn't the only Papyrus staffer monitoring this newsgroup.  If his
>statements were untrue, they would have been retracted months and months ago.
>Sierra/Papyrus better own up to this one.  
>It's bad enough you guys didn't put out the DOS patch back in December when you
>should have.  Not once have I seen a post from anybody at Papyrus say, "Sorry
>guys, we blew it, we have too much on our plate, and a schedule to meet".  All
>we ever got was, "The Patch will be out with the Windows95 release in mid
>June..wait for it".
>Is this going to be your attitude with Nascar2?  The product is out the door,
>let's dump the code and get on with the next project?  If so, I'll wait until
>it hits the $9.99 bargain bin, and then I'll shoplift it.
>Neil
>--
>Meek and obedient you follow the leader
>down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel..

>       Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

OK, folks.  I give up.  I'm done trying to help by giving out
information about the patch because people are just going to pick
apart words instead of listen to what is being said.  

This is my last posting on this subject.

1)  The DOS patch will be out soon online.
2)  Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win
95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped
in December.

It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Tim Dal

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Tim Dal » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


writes:

......snip

Ed:
Please don't let some newfee give you a headache.  Anyone who talks
about shoplifting  the software isn't worth the energy.  

We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We
usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I
really appreciate it!" message.  You would be bombarded.
Many read but few write.

Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a
pain in the A**).

We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company
above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility.

Tim Daley
59 Chevy Biscayne

"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Mike Carrother

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Mike Carrother » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


Daley) writes:


>writes:

>>OK, folks.  I give up....Snip

>>This is my last posting on this subject.

>......snip

>>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
>>questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

>>Ed Martin
>>Producer, Series Director
>>NASCAR Racing League
>>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>Ed:
>Please don't let some newfee give you a headache.  Anyone who talks
>about shoplifting  the software isn't worth the energy.  

>We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We
>usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I
>really appreciate it!" message.  You would be bombarded.
>Many read but few write.

>Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a
>pain in the A**).

>We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company
>above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility.

>Tim Daley
>59 Chevy Biscayne

>"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Ed-

I totaly agree with Tim. I am the Creative Labs rep for the soundcard
newsgroup, and let me tell you, some people HATE me cause I work for
them. People get pissed if I give them the correct answer, but not the
one they want to hear (like you and this David Martin guy and
assignable cars).

What I do is this: Are you married? You know when your wife starts
going on and on and on about something. You just smile and say "Yes
dear".....

Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing
to do but ***.

Mike

Mike Manthe

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Mike Manthe » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


> Mike,

> I've posted info in other threads regarding this...  here's the
> latest...

> The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update.
> Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide
> current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide
> for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send
> back your old CD & we'll send out a new one".

> It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on
> what Rick said.  Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said
> because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to
> make.

> Regardless, I will let you know more as soon as I know more.  Please
> follow the other threads.

> Ed Martin

Ed;
I have been following the other threads.  The error seems to be that
the newsgroup is far from being a "linear" messaging system.
Obviously, you received that message *after* you posted the information
referenced above.

I wrote it 2 days *before* seeing the information.   It was in no way meant
as a response to that info - nor am I intentionally skipping any thread in
R.A.S.    When I wrote it, there had been no response for close to a week.

** Many times, I get the response to a thread before seeing the original
** posting.  So it looks like we all need to give the RAS a little more time
** to update and replicate on everyone's system.  A day or two just isn't
** enough time.   (talk about latency!!!!  :-))

But speaking of time, if Rick did not have the authority to make that
statement, it should have been cleared up at that time, not left out in
the R.A.S. for months as though it were law.   As you probably know if
you deal in contract negotiations, if a representative of a company makes
a statement or promise to the customer, it can become legally binding.
(or at least a very sticky situation)    Rick was the representative, we
are the customer.

I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" (see? I DO read your threads!),
nor am I flaming without reading your posts.  It's all in the timing.
Please pass on to the appropriate persons/groups where applicable.

Finally, you've stated that it's too large to be downloadable.   We who are
regular R.A.S.'ers would like to help in that regards.   Some of us have
access to extensive computer systems, and may have other ways of handling
this.  [It's tough to be an *** and a game-loving child at the same time]

It's nothing to see 10 - 30 MEG files being transferred across the internet
on a daily (hourly) basis, so why should this be any different?   If the
update/patch is going to be created so that is disfunctional without the
original program (which generally is the case), why not let US make it
available to those with the bandwidth and take a load off of you?  

There are a lot of us with a keen interest in seeing this "sport" improve/
evolve/prosper/continue.  I know without asking that many web sites would
love to carry the update.   That's a "given".   There may even be large
enough local "users groups" that only one download per "area" may be necessary.

Kindest regards...
No personal flame intended anywhere...
Mike  (Dr2)         (too big for download is a relative term)
:-)

Neil Yeatma

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Neil Yeatma » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


> OK, folks.  I give up.  I'm done trying to help by giving out
> information about the patch because people are just going to pick
> apart words instead of listen to what is being said.

> This is my last posting on this subject.

> 1)  The DOS patch will be out soon online.
> 2)  Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win
> 95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped
> in December.

> It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
> questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

> Ed Martin
> Producer, Series Director
> NASCAR Racing League
> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed, I got a little bent out of shape, and I apologize to you.

Unfortunately, your statement, "Frankly, Rick was in no position to say
what he said because the official decision had not been made & it was not
his to make", made me see red. This looked to me like a clear case of
scapegoating.  It's all too easy to do after he's gone.

I am an ICR2 fan...I love the game, I've gotten more than my money's
worth (especially compared to some other software I've bought).  

It's this hideously (and unfairly) long wait for "the patch" that is
making me lose perspective.

I realize that you are/weren't involved with ICR2, and there is no
reason for me flaring at you.  

Keep up the good work on Hawaii, and give us open-wheelers a shot at it!

Neil
--
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel..


       Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

David Marti

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by David Marti » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00



> Daley) writes:


> >writes:

> >>OK, folks.  I give up....Snip

> >>This is my last posting on this subject.

> >......snip

> >>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
> >>questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

> >>Ed Martin
> >>Producer, Series Director
> >>NASCAR Racing League
> >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

> >Ed:
> >Please don't let some newfee give you a headache.  Anyone who talks
> >about shoplifting  the software isn't worth the energy.

> >We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We
> >usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I
> >really appreciate it!" message.  You would be bombarded.
> >Many read but few write.

> >Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a
> >pain in the A**).

> >We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company
> >above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility.

> >Tim Daley
> >59 Chevy Biscayne

> >"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

> Ed-

> I totaly agree with Tim. I am the Creative Labs rep for the soundcard
> newsgroup, and let me tell you, some people HATE me cause I work for
> them. People get pissed if I give them the correct answer, but not the
> one they want to hear (like you and this David Martin guy and
> assignable cars).

> What I do is this: Are you married? You know when your wife starts
> going on and on and on about something. You just smile and say "Yes
> dear".....

> Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing
> to do but ***.

> Mike

OK, I heard my name.  Listen, It may sound like I'm ***in' and maybe I
am.  I have been cooresponding with Ed for a couple of weeks because I'm
concerned that Papyrus has, under the pressure of NASCAR and other $$$
driven sponsorships, forgotten a very important aspect of stock car
racing.  Their service provides us with a way to drive against a small
set of drivers week in and week out.  This is good.  It is a step closer
to reality from racing offline.  But there is a small step that we want
Papyrus to take further.  Allow us to assign cars to drivers so that we
not only drive against the same people but those people are now always
in the same cars.  Ed has called me relentless.  Yes, I'm relentless.
I'm relentless to the point of saying that the software company that
provides a simulator service with this touch of personalism will get my
business.  I don't care if NASCAR is involved or not.  NASCAR isn't the
only stock car racing association.

David Martin

Mike Guntho

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Mike Guntho » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00



>writes:
>>OK, folks.  I give up....Snip
>>This is my last posting on this subject.

>......snip
>>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
>>questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

>>Ed Martin
>>Producer, Series Director
>>NASCAR Racing League
>>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>Ed:
>Please don't let some newfee give you a headache.  Anyone who talks
>about shoplifting  the software isn't worth the energy.  
>We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We
>usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I
>really appreciate it!" message.  You would be bombarded.
>Many read but few write.
>Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a
>pain in the A**).

>We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company
>above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility.

>Tim Daley
>59 Chevy Biscayne
>"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Here Here.

Mike

Mike Carrother

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Mike Carrother » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00

And who do you suppose will take the task of assigning cars? Papyrus?
NASCAR? I wouldn't want the job. How many flaming emails do you think
the person doing this will receive when Jonny doesn't get to drive the
Goodwrench car? Or Bubba not being able to drive the Master Bait and
Tackle car? My point, and I'm sure Papyrus' is, this would be a
logistical nightmare to do.

Mike

Derek Jam

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Derek Jam » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
>questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

That's totally unfair. I read this group avidly and have sat here through
all this mess saying nothing and just patiently checking the web site for
the patch.

But any company that has such close contact with it's customers as Papyrus
does through this n/g is setting itself up for this kind of hassle when it
makes promises it can't honour. That's the only cause of all the messages
directed your way.

No-one to blame but yourselves.

--
Derek James

Big Do

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Big Do » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00



I get your point Mike. But remember, a lot of us punks pay your
salaries. The bottom line can be summed up with this smart ass
remark," Are you here because of us, or are we here because of you?"
;-)

Tim Villanuev

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Tim Villanuev » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00

See ya... let us know what you find out there.

P.S. the assignable car issue has only been brought up a MILLION times,
     and addressed over and over.  What, you think they don't GET IT?

Randy Magrud

INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

by Randy Magrud » Thu, 04 Jul 1996 04:00:00


>OK, folks.  I give up.  I'm done trying to help by giving out
>information about the patch because people are just going to pick
>apart words instead of listen to what is being said.  
>This is my last posting on this subject.
>1)  The DOS patch will be out soon online.
>2)  Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win
>95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped
>in December.
>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer
>questions.  I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

Ed, its worth it.  Remember that for every loud and angry voice there
are 10 others that may not reply that find your information useful and
consider it a good thing that a company rep is taking the time to come
online and deal with the flak that flies your way.

No matter how much flak you take from some people, please remember
that every post you write attempting to explain what's going on is a
positive for your company and lets people know that the company they
are dealing with is not just some nameless faceless entity that
doesn't care about its customers.  

I understand the frustration of those who are impatiently waiting for
the patch, but I also know you're in the unenviable position of taking
all the flak for it.  All I can tell you is, I (and many others)
greatly appreciate your being here.  Please hang in there for the
silent majority of the people that read your posts and are grateful to
you for taking the time to keep us up to date with what's going on.

Cheers,

Randy


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