rec.autos.simulators

Maybe now everyone will stop bashing all AOLers  :)

Gene

Gene

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed, to clarify, does that mean the DOS=>DOS/Win95 patch?  Will the "DOS"
patch be the one that also adds DirectX support and the Win95 screens,
menus etc?  I saw the retail version for Win95/DOS/Mac at the store and
had to physically restrain myself from buying it all over again.  Really
disappointing that newbies are getting the goods now while your loyal
supporters sit around on their hands waiting for it indefinitely.  I
understand your reasons, but as a longtime customer, this is crushing.

Randy

Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

: "The patch" is a DOS-only patch.  It brings the DOS version up to date
: with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has
: DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD).  It (the patch) does not change the DOS
: version to Win 95.

FOUL!  FOUL!  We have been told numerous times by various Papyrus people
that we would be receiving a patch to upgrade our DOS version AND a
patch to upgrade to the Win95 version!  This is one of the reasons many
of us were trying to be patient for the release of this infamous patch.

This is BAD costumer support.  Ed, this is totally unbelievable.  Jerk
us around for 7 months about a patch for a crippled program.  Promise us
one thing and then snatch it away on the eve of its delivery.  If this
is really true, my respect for Papyrus has dropped quite a few notches.
I have long been a satisfied and loyal customer of Papyrus' products.  I
bought and still own every product your company produced.  This is not
the way to treat the loyal customers who long supported your company and
its products.

Here is a posting from a highly respected Papyrus ex-employee:

--------------------------- begin quoted article -----------------
Subject: Re: Laguna Seca Problems
Date: 13 Apr 1996 11:40:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 41




NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Status: RO

I expect ICR2 for Win95 to be a *really* slick GUI for car setup with a
graphics engine that's slower than the DOS one...and I probably won't
buy it.

....so fix the product I've bought!  Please.  Thanks for your attention.
<<<

[snipping unrelated posting -- Michael]

I'm not going to get into a debate about how we schedule work, but I
will say that when IndyCar Racing (ICR 1) shipped, it was Papyrus' only
project. The same went for NASCAR Racing. With IndyCar Racing II (ICR
2), Papyrus was/is working on six different projects at once. "Generating a
patch" is not a trivial matter, certainly not as trivial as people seem
to think. The only way we could produce a patch for the DOS version of
IndyCar Racing II without further slipping the Windows 95 and Macintosh
versions was to coordinate the fixes into the schedule, and that means
not being able to release the patch until the Windows 95 and Macintosh
versions are released.

The good news is that, so far, the Windows 95 version has remained on
schedule for a mid-June release (we haven't varied from the schedule by
more than a few days in 5 months now). We have a longer beta period
scheduled for the Windows 95 version than we did for the DOS version,
and we're not under the kind of pressure we were under for the DOS version
(though we are under pressure to release before the end of June). So far
we've managed to fix the major problems that have been found including
the traction bug and the digital/analog throttle disparity, but not the
yellow flag problems (I'm working on that next week).

[--now the IMPORTANT part-- Michael]

And since you bought the DOS version, you don't have to buy the Windows
95 version. You'll be able to download a "patch" for that as well.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

--------------------------- end of quoted article ---------------

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

How come someone who buys the product now gets his choice of version,
while I'm still stuck with the DOS version?! Half the reason I decided
to upgrade from ICRI to ICRII when I did was the assurances from Rick
that the Windows95 upgrade would be included in the patch....

Sorry, Ed, you guys are out of line on this one....

Keith Meyer

Before I go off on how absurd your organization is, I would really
like you to clarify your above statement with respect to our "free
upgrade to the WIN95 version"(your words, not mine).

Comments?

Wunderbar!  Three months ago I drop $45 US for ICR2 after receiving multiple
assurances from Mr. Genter that I would not have to drop another stack of cash
for the Win95 upgrade. [ie. see mike carver's reply] I'm not one to worry too
much about production delays ... they are a fact of life, however, this is
different.  Ed, if you tell me a Win95 patch is impossible to construct from an
economic point of view I will accept that and either use the DOS patch or
purchase the Win95 version.  If this is not an economic decision of ultimate
significance (read: the patch will bankrupt Papyrus/Sierra) please note my
disappointment and attempt to understand that although your input in your
capacity as a tech-lead at Papyrus/Sierra is often invaluable to this group I
do not like being ***ed by dis-information.  At its core, this decision
appears to be tainted with a modicum of greed.  Ed, I ***y well love ICR2 and
you all have done a wonderful job.  Please expound upon the dashing of hopes
and derogation of prior statements in the above terse quote and dispell my
concern that this decision was motivated by common avarice.

Danka schon,

eric suter
somewhere near the lonely orb called Sol.

: "The patch" is a DOS-only patch.  It brings the DOS version up to date
: with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has
: DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD).  It (the patch) does not change the DOS
: version to Win 95.

: Ed Martin
: Producer, Series Director
: NASCAR Racing League
: Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed, I truly hope you have "mispoken" about this.  Since we were told (at
least here in r.a.s. and on America On-Line) by representives of your
company that we would receive a "free" patch and upgrade to the
DOS/Win95 version of ICR2.  If you do not provide such, I sincerely
believe this is a breach of contract.

I do not think your company would think lightly of me if I promised to
send you $60.00 if you sent me a copy of ICR2 and 7 months later I said,
"No, I have changed my mind.  I will keep the copy of ICR2, but I will
only send you $12.50."  That would be a breach of contract and you would
have m***and legal grounds to attempt to retrieve $47.50 from me.

Your company made a decision to delay developing a patch for the DOS
version of ICR2 so you could devote work to the Win95/Mac version.  In
that sense I see myself and other ICR2 DOS owners as having financed
the Win95/Mac version.  After 7 months of your having had my investment
"funds", I feel you are morally obligated to return us a dividend on
that investment.  All we are expecting for this dividend is what we were
told we would receive, a free patch and upgrade to the Win95 version.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I recommend you take my stand on this one...I don't give a damn about the
Win95 version until at least 75% of the people running this version
report back that the frame rate is at least as good as the DOS version,
especially from those running a Matrox Millennium (my card).

I fully expect the Win95 version to be all GUI, no action.  If I'm wrong,
then brand me "village idiot" and I'll go hide under a rock.

On the other hand, if running the Win95 version is the only way to play
a "Hawaii for ICR2", then I'll have to meekly line up to install it, and
bite the bullet on the frame rate.

Neil
--
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel..

       Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Shades of Sierra and their annual update to Football Pro 9X. I realise that
Sierra claims this is do to NFL Licensing agreements. I wonder if this will
be blamed on CART agreements. Regardless, if this is true, Sierra/Papyrus
will have lost a loyal customer here. I too own every product Papyrus has
ever released, and many from Sierra. The reason I haven't been bad-mouthing
Papyrus over these many months (unlike so many others) waiting for the fix
is that I understood that this was to be much more then just a fix for the
major bugs. If this is to be nothing more than a DOS fix, then the delay for
the patch is completely unjustified. It seems logical to me that a patch for
a seriously flawed current version should be released before a new version
ships. This is extremely poor customer support.

     <<"The patch" is a DOS-only patch.  It brings the DOS version up to
date with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package
has DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD).  It (the patch) does not change the DOS
version to Win 95.>>

     I'm sure that, by now, I'm not the only person to comment on this
but nothing has reached my NNTP server yet. We have been led to believe,
since ICRII hit retail, that "the patch" was going to:
     A) Fix the traction "undocumented feature" in the game and...
     B) Upgrade the DOS version to the Win95 platform.

     If this isn't so, why has nobody corrected our assumptions? We've
been going on and on about this for the better part of 4-5 months now
and have seen no sign that this was going to be DOS only and no upgrade
to Win95. This is just simplt ridiculous! It's bad enough when an
employer gets information wrong to his employees but when two employees
of the same employer have two different stories it leads us to have
little faith in those making products for us. This is quite a blow...
     Nick

____________________________________________________________________

#6 (will he be #28 in '97?) and #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup!
My home away from home...  http://www.mindspring.com/~ntotoro/
____________________________________________________________________