rec.autos.simulators

despite a coupla years of sim racing papyrus, crammond & even ubisoft
titles, i know deep down in my heart that if i ever got behind the
wheel of a formula one car, I'd probably not be able to get out of the
pits, let alone complete a lap of a circuit.

i'm sure that given a ford mondeo saloon, i'd probably crash the car
on a lap around donington.  i believe that simracing probably prepares
me for the theory of real-life racing, but not the practical.  

i'm sure that those of you who have real-life racing experience can
use that to enhance the first time simracing, but i doubt that the
benefits work both ways to the same degree.

the reason for this long pre-amble is that last night, after getting
my machine stable(sorta) with f1 2001, i switched off all driving
aids, bumped up the difficulty to the highest setting and did a
practise session at monza.  the only setting left off was clutch
assistance.  i guess with a 2 pedal MS FF wheel, i can't really
simulate a clutch anyway.

after a coupla slow laps(and spins), i managed to get the car around
the track in about 1.32 (similar to my gpl time).  with the AI lapping
a lot faster than me, i was still able to keep up with them and even
catch them on different parts of the track.  i guess with a bit more
consitency, i would be able to lap much faster.

is this realistic?

after months of gpl, i still crash now and then at the parabolica
*and* lesmos.  how come f1 2001 is relatively easy by comparison?

in contrast f1rc seems much harder to drive with all aids off.  i
always felt that this was better.

i guess more hours of play of f1 2001 are called for to see if maybe i
am missing something.  i'm certainly looking forward to it.  i have
temporarily stopped playing f1rc & gpl since buying f1 2001.

lastly.  i wish that you could take the track layouts of f1rc (with
side roads, vehicles, run offs, etc) and marry it with the bumpiness
of the f1 2001 layouts.  what a marvellous combination.

Regards all,
istoff

"Its easy to get lost in thought
if you don't go there often"    - Me, 1993

yes dave,

but i'm sure i'm a lousy driver :)  i should be worse in f1 2001 than
i really am.

gpl with all aids off is *** for me.  i feel like a pinball
sometimes as i go off the rails and bounce around the track.

f1 2001 has a degree of difficulty if you give too much right boot
with the wheel slightly turned, but thats about all.  

i think i want to reinstall gp3 again and compare all the modern sims
again.

mind you, i'm still enjoying f1 2001, and horror of horrors, if I had
to bet on it, i would say that the patched version will be better than
f1rc.  mind you, i will still be eagerly waiting in line for f1rc2.
this time though, i will wait for the reviews first ;)

as for DGF, I am keen to hear his comments about f1 2001.  i believe
we are of similar opinion on f1rc.

As for N4.  Still gathering dust for me.  I don't race online at all,
so the main attraction of N4 is lost on me.

have a good weekend everyone.  No more F1.  Hope there's CART on
Sunday.  Go go go Helio (forlorn hope).  Climb that fence Spiderman :)

Regards all,
istoff

"Its easy to get lost in thought
if you don't go there often"    - Me, 1993

Warlock!

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:51:07 -0500, "Warlock!"

Well now, I wouldn't exactly call your points 1) and 2) "helpers"
exactly. They make the car go faster, but easier? I wouldn't say that.
Some may even say that it is easier to drive with less grip, because
you have all the time in the world to make up for big
slides(comparatively). But then again, I will never know from personal
experiences... <sigh>  :-)

On the third point, well there's really no argument, is there... But I
think that it is WAY overstated. It has definitely not expanded the
envelope of the car, it's more for conserving the tires and
machinery(or so I have read). It has done *jack* for the laptimes,
there are still plenty spinning out and the difference in speed
between drivers is still the same. Even if JPM said that much of the
skill is removed, there's something that makes one go faster than the
other. Going from laptimes and a muted TV-screen, nobody would know
the difference, I would think.

That being said, I'd rather not have TC and auto-gearboxes myself, but
then someone have to come up with something to control it, if we're
not going to have spec. racing. Actually after the mudslinging in the
beginning of the season I couldn't wait for TC to come, just to get
the cheat allegations to stop.

i didn't mean that it is too easy, i wrote that it seemed relatively
easy compared to GPL.  

I don't expect to be on the pace of others after less than 1 hour of
play.  also, i don't ever expect to be on the pace of some folk as I
am definately not alien.  i expect i will always be a few seconds off
the world records at any circuit as I don't have the luxury some folk
have of playing everynight.  i hope to get in a coupla hours this
weekend at least.

as to CART, I live in Cape Town, South Africa and we get the feed on
ESPN at either 8pm or 10pm Sunday, depending on which US timezone, i
guess.

btw, i played f1rc today on without any aids.  it was similar to f1
2001, so i guess dh is probably right. (what am i thinking?)

oh yes, and now i'm only 8 seconds off the pace..., tomorrow, probably
6 seconds, monday, 4, etc.  hell, come christmas i'll be the fastest
driver around at this rate of improvement. *grin*

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:18:47 +0100, "Iain Mackenzie"

First of all, I want to like this sim a lot. I was an early fan of F12000, I
liked many things about GP3, but when F1RC was released, that took the F1
crown. No silly allegiances or biases towards developers and series from me,
regardless of what a few of you like to say. Completely the opposite.

F12001 clearly has better AI and sound than F1RC.

Graphics are excellent, but not quite as good as F1RC's, both in looks and
performance.

Multiplayer is better in F1RC with F1RC Relay, but we'll see what a patch
from EA can do. Ubi Soft was unable to develope it's multiplayer due to FIA
restrictions, so I do hope and expect EA to have better multiplayer if they
aren't under the same restrictions.

FF? We'll see what the patch gives us.

No ghost mode in F12001 which I miss a lot. Love it in F1RC. Didn't F1200/CS
have a ghost mode?

Are false starts included as they are in F1RC, because I can't find that
option?

Replay and camera views are much better in F1RC.

Track accuracy. F1RC is clearly more accurate, but F12001 isn't so far off
the mark that it ruins the experience for me. Some tracks are very good. I
do notice the lack of banking and camber at places like Monza when compared
to F1RC. F1RC tracks are identical to the real ones based on side by side
screenshot/pictures and video footage. The effects of the curbing in F1RC is
much more noticeable. There are sections of curbing in F1RC which I must be
aware of and use correctly or I'm off into the tire barrier.

Physics. Here's where I'm having trouble making up my mind. Right now, the
cars in F12001 feel similiar to GP3 in some ways (nothing like they did in
F12000CS). They feel too light and somewhat sloppy, even on a long straight.
I can hold my line and be much more precise in F1RC. I read many posts from
people at HG saying the F12001 cars suffered from too much understeer, and
they were right. F1RC gives a much more *** and physical driving
experience as you push the limit. The F12001 cars seem somehwat tame in
comparison. The sense of speed in F1RC is much higher too. I don't notice
any dirty air effects from the AI cars either, which is something done very
well and realistically in F1RC. The F12001 cars slide waaay too much IMO
(GPL'ers will like this I'm sure). I've caught some huge slides in just the
two days I've had it. Slides are fairly easy to catch too. I don't recall
too may slides like these in real F1 in recent years. In F1RC, you can slide
the cars but your fudge factor is smaller and you must be quicker. F12001
just doesn't have the ooomph that F1RC does. For comparison, in F1RC,
accelerating out of Pouhon and through Stavelot, along with the thrill of
Eau Rouge, is much more of a knife's edge challenge than it is in F12001.

The thing is, I won't be surprised if my opinions change with regards to the
F12001 car physics/handling. It could be the setups I've used so far aren't
good enough. I also am wondering about how the game is working with my
controller (Ferrari FF). The steering is so light (compared to F1RC
especially) that I think something must be wrong. Dead zone is zero, and
even with speed sensitivity set at 80%, a long, high speed straight feels
loose. Also, the excess wheel spin I initially experienced with F12001 seems
to have come from the fact that most of the travel of the pedal is wasted.
With the throttle pressed almost all the way down, I'm still in 1st gear and
doing 60mph. Sort of like having exponential throttle control in F1RC as
opposed to linear throttle. I've already gotten used to this, but the
situation could be a whole lot better. Braking is easier in F12001 than it
is in F1RC. Don't really have to worry about locking up unless I have the
gas pressed all the way down and am going very slow. In F1RC, braking is
more of a challenge, and I can even control the inside wheel with the brake
while turning.

So basically, right now, I don't know what the hell to think about this sim.
:-)

David G Fisher

ISI say they worked with the engineers at each track and used whatever
data the engineers had, including dxf files.  I really think the
supposed track inaccuracy is just an appearance difference due to the
fact that F1 2001 uses a narrower FOV than most other sims.

I've wondered about that too.  I used to do a lot of aero work, although
never for anything that ***.  But you lose a lot of lift/downforce
when you yaw most any vehicle.  If you are sliding that means you are
already over the traction limit, and if you then lose your downforce on
top of that it should not be possible to recover, I would think.  But,
like I said, I've never actually had an F1 vehicle in the wind tunnel,
so I could be wrong.

Speed sensitivity of 0% and X axis sensitivity of 14% feel pretty good
to me, very linear.  I think the looseness is just due to lack of FF,
i.e. no on-center feel.  I have not been able to find a setting for the
centering spring on my wheel which feels positive enough at the center
but not too heavy at the limits.

Regards,
Hal

I keep wanting to play F1RC instead, but some little voice at the back
of my mind keeps saying "but F1 2001 is supposed to be better"

I think, because of the more "open" nature of the game (ini files,
etc), that F1 2001 *will* be the best modern f1 sim.  Maybe within the
next month, this will happen.  As of now, F1RC still holds the crown
for me.  Narrowly mind you.  As you've mentioned, the ghost mode is
excellent, FF feels good the track renditions are just fantastic.

Regards all,
istoff

Patch should be released mid nov he said, including ff. They recently
hired an ff specialist to do the ff, they wanted to do it right..
sounded hopefull.

Andre

What do you mean gotten use to this ? You did not fix this ? Because it can
be fixed !

Braking is easier in F12001 than it
sim.
To tell you the truth, I've raced the game for a week and a half now, and
yesterday a went back to F1RC.
I hate the replay in F12001. It does not even come close in termes of
quality of the pictures, and the sense of reality of of F1RC. In F12001 cars
look like floating on the water. Compared to F12001 F1RC nearly produces
'life broadcasting' of a race !
Also, in the general the graphics of the F12001-game do not even come close
to F1RC, which is one of the reasons why the feeling of speed is much worse.
Furthermore, the cars are too easy to drive even without all aids off (and I
mean everything). Laptimes are way to quick. One other important thing is
the way understeer and oversteer is modelled. In F1RC I always SEE the car
having problems with understeer, and combined with the understeering
experience through FF, this is much more realistic than anything that
happens with understeer in F12001.
Most important for me however is that whatever I do, I've installed the game
10 times now after 110% complete deinstall, it still refuses to let me go
back from racing to the main menu. It just steps out and goes back to
windows. That has cost me a lot of time getting display and controller to
work properly ! But I will not be bothered again. I will delete the stuff
and drive F1RC again, awaiting a patch for F1RC or F1RC2.

lock

Tried Monaco, Canada or Japan?

Iain