rec.autos.simulators

I'm about to get a new system (133 mhz P5 & ET6000 vid. card)and am wondering:
    o With 133-200 mhz. Pentiums and Soundblaster 16 or 32 PnP
      soundcards, is a dedicated gamecard (e.g., TM or CH) really necessary?
    o If so, is it possible to disable the SB's built-in gameport?
    o Has anyone encountered any problems with the SB 16/32 PnP
      card while running sims or other game software?

Thanks.

--

Instrumental, Inc.    Phone:     612-603-0985
St. Paul, MN USA      Fax:       612-603-0781  

I did have to recalibrate everything after I switched from 100mhz to
133mhz recently, but no biggie.  Both DOS and Win95 games work fine.
Oh, I have the IDE port on it disabled.  I've heard this combo works
great, while some other Soundblasters (SCSI's mostly) are not so great.
YMMV.

writes:
necessary?

I use my AWE32 gameport with my T1 and NASCAR all the time with no
problems.

It is under DOS6.22/Win31. Win95 has a bug where it will not allow you
to really free the port.

Never.

Mike Carrothers
Creative Labs

It should be. Either via jumper or thru setup software. My SB Pro had a jumper,
while my Ensoniq is configured via WINDOWS95 setup software. The software even
sets the up for DOS too.

Yep... Especially the ones that are built into their MotherBoard. Avoid those.

I have a P-133 and as long as you have a good quality sound card it
should be fine as your game port. I have an Aztech Sound Galaxy Pro 16

Extra, and have not had one problem with it. No compatiblity or game
port problems.

C-Ya!,
J.J.};->

I recently upgraded to a P166, and using the same AWE32 card, I've
been having lots of probs.
In Grand Prix 2, it works fine. Then, in for eg. Screamer, the Y axis
doesn't register.

I would like to know wether a dedicated gamecard will solve these
probs before forking out $39.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            SPYBYTE
Wherever you go... there you are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also check your bios to see if it has a speed setting for the AT Bus.   On my
motherboard (AMI bios), I have a selection for "AT Bus" speed -  from clock divided by
2 to clock div by 8 or 9...or something like that.   It's been a while.  I forget some
details.  Whatever, it lets you slow down the bus speed so the old cards won't freak
out.

Funny thing, no matter what I set it to, my cheap SB Pro card's gameport works fine.
You do have to re-calibrate your joystick/wheel every time you change this value, but
it's something you play with once and then leave alone.  (maybe)  :-0
Mike

: I'm about to get a new system (133 mhz P5 & ET6000 vid. card)and am wondering:
:     o With 133-200 mhz. Pentiums and Soundblaster 16 or 32 PnP
:       soundcards, is a dedicated gamecard (e.g., TM or CH) really necessary?

I used a P133 and now a P200. Both with my Thrustmaster ACM card and had no
problems. Due to lack of 16-Bit slots I had to remove the ACM card for a while
and reactivated the gameport on my SB16 (normal - no PnP). I couldn't tell
any difference at all. Of course I had to recalibrate every installed game,
but the performance is the same.
One should consider, that the ACM card has two complete gameports built in.
With that, you could actually connect four 2-axis joysticks to your computer
or eight analog devices of any other kind. That might become handy if we'll
ever see a sim with analog throttle support for a two or more engine plane.
UNfortunatly the second port isn't supported by any software yet - as far as
I know.

                Robin

_______________________________________________________________________________

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  WWW:          wwwfb12.ikb.uni-essen.de/~breyl
_______________________________________________________Impact! Boom! Oh, Yes!__

: I'm about to get a new system (133 mhz P5 & ET6000 vid. card)and am wondering:
:     o With 133-200 mhz. Pentiums and Soundblaster 16 or 32 PnP
:       soundcards, is a dedicated gamecard (e.g., TM or CH) really necessary?
:     o If so, is it possible to disable the SB's built-in gameport?
:     o Has anyone encountered any problems with the SB 16/32 PnP
:       card while running sims or other game software?

I know that the majority of the followups for this in r.a.s., have said
there is no real need for a dedicated gamecard.  Or at least that this
is their experience.  However, I've read an article in an old issue of
Computer Game Review that states that not using a gamecard that is
adjustable can create a 6-12% CPU overhead.  This happens while the CPU
waits for joystick information from a card set for the old 8mhz ISA bus.
Can anyone confirm this?  Is this really an issue that many of us are
overlooking?  This is the first that I remember hearing of this issue.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Michael,

Think about it - suppose the DREADED 12% impact were true and you were
running a sim or game that you got 7 fps on - a better game port could
improve that to about 7.8 fps.  On the highest end of the spectrum, say
at 25 fps, that would go to 28 fps.  25 fps is where things look smooth
to you and any more really doesn't help all that much.

On the lower end (6% improvement) the numbers are:

7 fps to 7.42 fps
25 fps to 26.5 fps

Likely you'd see it somewhere in between - maybe the 9%???

that's:

7 fps to 7.63 fps
25 fps to 27.25 fps.

And that's assuming you can ignore everything else that's going
on inside the computer and in the software itself that also can
interfere at different points.  Unfortunately, although you, and
magazine writers and marketing people can ignore them, the computer,
the software, and the game port can't ignore them.

The issue is simply how the joystick routine is written, how the
game port responds to the signals from it, and how everything else
in that particular person's computer is impacting things all have
something to do with it.  For those who have the problem, they should
get a speed adjustable game port and fix the problem.

For those who do not run into this situation, they should use what they
have and not fix something that is not broken - UNTIL and IF they run
into a game or sim that they encounter the situation with.

Saying "You don't need one because it all works fine on MY system is not
an intelligent answer."

Saying "You may need one on your system for some software IS the answer.

Buzz

Stephen,

Lately, however, they seem to be saying everything is just 'hunky-dory' with the
SB game port.  I haven't seen any changes to the design of it to suggest that
is true, of course, there is that:

"You CAN disable it in Win 3.1, and DOS (the SB pnp built into the motherboard
on some computers), but "Win 95 has a bug in it..." that won't allow you to
disable it...

Win 95 doesn't have a bug, it's pnp and it is detecting a pnp sound card with
a game port on it that CL did not put a hardware (jumper) provision to allow
you to disable it.  Geeze, this is not a big deal CL.

Put a half cent jumper on the damned thing and the problem will go away.  Blaming
it on a Win 95 bug is the wrong thing to do.

You will note that it will likely work fine as a game port for most software. But
sooner or later, the majority of people will run into games that have a joystick
routine that cannot work properly with a non speed-adjustable game card on a
sound card or multi i/o card - they simply do not reset fast enough (among
other things to work with some joystick routines.)

Never mind that the danged software's joystick routine is as much to blame for
this - it could be written to avoid this type problem and make speed adjustable
cards unnecessary in almost all situations.  But, the fact of the matter is,
there are some games that do have joystick routines that lack this type of
attention.

The facts are:
1. The Creative Labs sound cards with game ports are excellent (the best IMHO)
sound cards that happen to have some shortcomings in the game port area - to wit:
a. Lack of a jumper to disable the pnp ones - that was extremely short sighted
IMHO.
b. Lack of high enough quality components or speed adjustability to allow ALL
users to get around problem joystick routines.  Leaving this up to the software
companys is not a PRO-ACTIVE solution - it's an avoidance solution.

2. Many people can operate most games just fine with a sound card game port.

3. Many people cannot operate all games just fine with a sound card game port.
It ain't just the game port or the software - it's the whole danged system -
including the game port AND the software and how they work together with a
person's particular motherboard and what different cards he has in that system.

4. IF ALL software had the best joystick routines that handled every possible
problem that can arise in a joystick routine - motherboard (bus speed, power
levels, etc) - game port then speed adjustable game ports would be totally
unnecessary.

5. Think about it:
a. The joystick consists of wires, pots and buttons - nothing else affects the
game port - the extra electronics in the programmable ones only use the keyboard
line.
b. The game port has the electronic circuitry on it that controls how the stick
responds to the software's joystick routine and the signals it sends to the
game port.
c. The software's joystick routine has more to do with it than many people want
to admit, but it's natural for programmers who are excellent at doing graphics
and other things well to misunderstand how to interface with hardware properly.
Especially if they don't know that some game ports can reset too fast (or over
run the counter, among other things) on really fast computers and muck things
up they know should work perfectly well in their program code.

What this all adds up to is this:

In ThrustMaster's (and CH's - I've talked to them) tech support, a major share
of the problems we deal with every day are caused by people running a game
with a joystick or other controller (gamepad, whatever)on a sound card game port.
In fact, they are the biggest problem and have been for years.  A speed
adjustable game card will solve about 90+ % of these problems.

Getting a pnp sound card with no hardware provision to disable it, thus forcing
the end-user to use the game port on it in Win 95 does not assist the problem
in any way - it simply makes it more difficult.

Calling it a "Win 95" bug does not help either.  Adding a half a cent jumper
that allows the user to disable it if he chooses or finds he has a situation
where he needs to disable it would help.

It's that simple.

Buzz

[some very good stuff snipped]
: For those who do not run into this situation, they should use what they
: have and not fix something that is not broken - UNTIL and IF they run
: into a game or sim that they encounter the situation with.

: Saying "You don't need one because it all works fine on MY system is not
: an intelligent answer."

: Saying "You may need one on your system for some software IS the answer.

: Buzz

Just a note to say thanks for the very straight forward response.  And
from past experience if Buzz says something, I can trust him.  If I
remember correctly he helped start Thrustmaster and they are one of the
best!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Ah, but Buzz, there are two things you don't understand.

1. Win95 Config Manager does have a bug, where when you disable a PnP
port, it will not let you use the resource. I have tested it, and have
seen the problem. You can disable it in DOS/Win31 without any problems,
just not in WIn95.

2. In order to be "Microsoft PnP Win9X Compatible", you need to have
all ports be disabled by software ONLY. No jumpers. While I don't like
it either, most people look for the MS logo, and will not buy unless
they see it.

So while it is sucks to have a software company drivng the hardware
industry, in order for Creative (and others) to stay in business, we
need to follow the rules.

Mike Carrothers
Creative Labs