rec.autos.simulators

Having tried virtually every hardware combination going during the past
several years of overclocking, upgrading, and building systems for
friends, I personally would say that game cards are the biggest waste of
money I have seen, possibly second only to these "Radio Card" things
that you see.

If the performance from the sound card JS-port is so bad, the soundcard
itself will be old and needing replaced. Why not spend the money on a
better soundcard, which comes with a free improved JS-port too?!

The soundcard market is VERY cut throat, and good quality DACs and ADCs
are very cheap. Despite all the horror stories you hear about terrible
quality soundcard gameports, why would they compromise a product in a
cut-throat market just to save a few cents? Think about it! Generally if
you hear unsubstantiated horror stories in the PC world, it's because
someone doesn't want you to do it - more money for them. I've NEVER seen
any problems from soundcard ports, and have used many of them in many
different PCs. Save your money and get a better soundcard.

Cheers!
John
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This 200-207 ***came from the IBM XT/AT spec, look it up. And the
Creative Labs cards can use any I/O port in this range.

Mike Carrothers
Creative Labs

In reply to Buzz Hoffman (No relation I think :) )
   I have found that in the win95 Device Mangler you can disable the
joystick port by unchecking the box marked: Use original configuration.  
when I reboot the port is disabled, HOWEVER, the irq is still used up
which stinks because I need the IRQ for another card. But I am able to    
then use a gamecard without conflicts.... I am considering moving away    
from Creative to the Crystalake cards. They have jumpers to disable
Joystick and IDE controller(Both are eating needed IRQ's on my system
now). Also I hear that they have much less buzzing, hissing and pulsing
noises like I'm getting on my current SB16 and also had on my previous
AWE32pnp.
        Best,  
          -Jon

Mike,

Oh, but I do understand, it doesn't necessarily make it a bug.  But it is an
effective way to dodge the fact that a jumper WOULD fix it. 8)

<>2. In order to be "Microsoft PnP Win9X Compatible", you need to have

I understand that too, but the fact is, since this is causing people problems,
I could care less about the Win95 sticker issue.  If we have to focus on
coming down on the side of Microsoft's Win 95 sticker checklist requirements,
and not on the side of the end users then we aren't doing our customers a
service - we're aiding Microsoft in doing them a disservice.  I am not blaming
Creative Labs here, but still, a jumper would fix it.

<>So while it is sucks to have a software company drivng the hardware

I doubt CL would go out of business for the lack of a Win 95 sticker on the
box of their sound cards.  Creative Labs' cards (last time I checked) had a
very good reputation.  Why mess that up by letting Microsoft decide for you
how you should make and market your products?  Yes, I agree it sucks that they
have created this situation with their Plug 'n Play and the "Pay us a $1,000
and make your hardware the way we say it will be made...and we'll let you
put a sticker on your box."  But I don't think that means we hardware mfrs have
to bow and scrape to them.

I still think the issue is this:
1. PNP requirements have created a problem whereby some people who want to use a
dedicated game port cannot do so (i.e. the sound card is on the motherboard)
when used with Win 95.

2. Yes, pnp's requirements specify no jumper - this is what's causing the
problem.

3. Saying "...it's a bug in Win 95..."  Does not fix the problem.

4. Adding a jumper fixes the problem.

5. Changing the pnp requirements would also allow the problem to be fixed
and still allow a little 'Microsoft Approved' sticker on the box.  But,
given MS' past history, what's the chances of this happening - especially
soon?  About as much chance of that as Congress really, actually, honestly,
cutting the visible taxes and lowering visible spending without raising
the less visible taxes and less visible spending at the same time.  i.e.
there is no chance.

And just think, you'd be doing this for your customers and not for 'business
reasons' (while looking frantically too and fro to see if 'Big Bro' MS was
watching you.

Buzz Hoffman

Bob,

<<<=Snipped the repetetive stuff=>>>

< Very true avout the SB PnP cards. I have a SB32 PnP that was nothing
but trouble. I eventually swapped it with an old AWE32 from my backup
computer and all the probs went away. I do use an ACM game card as
well.>

You could likely get around this with as long as it's a card by:
1. Shutting off your computer.
2. Removing the SB32 pnp card and make sure the ACM is installed.
3. Restart the computer and set up the ACM card.
4. Shut off the computer and reinstall the SB32 pnp card.
5. Reboot the computer and if it sets up the SB32 pnp card then disable
it in the control panel.

Much easier than just having a jumper on the SB32 pnp card itself. ;)

If it's built into the motherboard you can't disable it - period - you
will use it, OR ELSE.  Microsoft says so. 8)

<One question for you Buzz. Is it PnP bios that assigns resource
settings or is it the cards software? My biggest problem with the PnP
port was I couldnt change the resources to 201-201(I think that was
the settings) because Win95 wouldnt let me. With the old card I can
use several different resource settings. Do you know which part of the
chain is responsible for this? >

It's the pnp bios - as per MS' requirements.

Buzz

I have a question concerning using a speed adjustable game card.  I have
noticed that wheel response seems more precise and more linear on my
system which has an ACM card than my buddies which uses the SB port.
Has anyone else noticed this?  If this is true than there is a
definite advantage to using a speed adjustable game card.  Precision is
of the upmost importance in a racing sim.

Dana Bailes
Hawaii: DBailes

Dana,

<>I have a question concerning using a speed adjustable game card.  I have

The advanced precision IS there, but you really have to be looking for it
to see it.  And, once again, it is a question of small differences that,
over time, can add up to big ones.  The ACM card eliminates heat drifting,
it has mil spec components (1% tolerance) so the numbers don't vary as much
as the other cards (20% tolerance) components do.  The reset happens instantly
no delay.  The ability to adjust the pulse length can even eliminate most of
that 'dreaded' overhead all the marketing folks talk about (not mentioning
that they are in the realm of microseconds) by taking less time to read with
a shorter pulse length, etc.  But, as with other things, if you don't really
understand it well, you can actually make it work worse by fiddling with it
and getting it set wrong.

Buzz

Yes, damned fine response. It gave me a little info on a problem I'm having as
well. Thanks.

Corsair
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Just what the heck is really going on, anyway?

Trips

Hi Buzz,

Whilst what you are saying is undoubtedly true, I would rather take
the attitude that "every little helps" :)

If spending a small amount of extra money on a dedicated game card
would allow me an extra couple of fps with the same processor
occupancy or having the same fps with extra textures on, I would leap
at it. Whilst I might not be able to particularly tell the difference
between a frame rate of 21 fps and 23 fps it becomes very obvious if
you look at it in terms of PO in GP2 as 100% is great but 110% is
awful :((

Pity I don't really believe that I _would_ get a real world 10%
improvement though.....

Cheers,
Richard

Dana Bailes

I've been following this thread with interest as I have a last-generation
Dell P166, and alas the game port is on the motherboard wih the Vibra 16
chipset. I am actually having problems with my current Suncom stick and
was thinking of moving to an FLCS and get an ACM gamecard, but now I am
wondering whether there any way of disabling the on-board port. I don't
recall any jumper whatsoever on the board.

Do you know of any way around this, or am I basically lumped with a
defective gameport?

Mark

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Trips,

Nothing really going on.  It's just one of them typical PC things.  They are all
different.  Mr Bios is an aftermarket bios and a darned good one too.  I had to
get one of those to replace the bios I had in my 386/33 and it had lots of
improvements to it over and above the one that came with it.

I would imagine their microcode is quite a bit different than the Award one was.
For whatever reason (microcode, etc) the Mr Bios wouldn't let you disable it,
and that's not unusual.  I've been seeing about a 75% success rate at disabling
SB pnp cards with people who all have different systems.

One method of disabling it will work for several people and not work for others.
I have about 3 different methods I have them try if the first one doesn't work
and the experience with them is similar - works for some people and doesn't work
for others.

That's part of what makes PCs so difficult and why you can't make general
statements about it like:

"I've been using the such & such sound card game port and have experienced
no problems whatsoever so you don't need a dedicated game port."  That peron's
experience with his computer really has nothing to do with ALL pcs, however,
it does have something to do with SOME pcs which will work similar to his.

There is such a garden variety of "100% IBM PC compatible" computer systems
out there that 100% IBM compatible doesn't really mean much any more and
hasn't for some time now.  There are systems that do proprietary things on
their keyboard lines, and in the bios and still have all the IBM PC specs
covered.  I guess they are 101% PC compatible - although it causes problems
sometime.  One has a bios that totally blocks the users access to the
keyboard i/o ports and they still call themselves "100% IBM compatible".

Per the specs, access to the keyboard i/o ports is supposed to be
"user configurable".

Buzz

Buzz

Mark,

Buzz

Can we please get back to AUTO SIMULATORS PLEASE !!!

This is getting a little crazy!

Tim