rec.autos.simulators

More on GP 500 Physics....

Mark C Dod

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Mark C Dod » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00

In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward
and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt
degrees of lean off the bike instead of assuming a centered position as
in EA Superbikes. They also have some of the current crop of real GP500
riders testing the software and giving feedback on the physics (and
hopefully providing some ghost laps I can practice against). When I last
visited the programmers there were dozens of books on bike physics,
tuning, riding techniques and racing history they used as refence. The
programmers attend real GP500 meetings with the software in hand to get
feedback from real riders.  The effort they are putting into the realism
of the physics is astounding. Please ignore the raving of people in this
newsgroup and elswhere on the web who are making uneducated guesses at
the physics based on a few stills they have seen. When the demo is
released then I am sure there will be a good debate on it's merits
within this newsgroup.
John Walla

More on GP 500 Physics....

by John Walla » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00



It's just natural cynisism, and perhaps understandable. I could list
you quite a few products where precisely the effort you described
above was put in, and yet an arcade turkey was the result. Feedback
from drivers, tested by drivers, telemetry data, physics books and
analysis, techniques and theory etc - made no difference untimately.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating as you say, and I think
people should hold on and give them the benefit of the doubt at least,
especially since although they have no track record of good products
they have no track record of letting anyone down either!

Looking forward to trying it :-)

Cheers!
John

Mike Laske

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Mike Laske » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward
>and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt

<all the good stuff snipped>

Mark,

Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to
take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more
speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of
the front tyre is going to be :)   And you also need plenty of weight
forward, under acceleration everything shifts back and you really got to
keep that front tyre loaded as much as poss.  I've saved two tank slappers
caused by a combination of too much speed on shoddy road quality in the last
100 miles on my bike, and it is seriously worrying when its happening.  But
getting to the point, as somebody who is very accustomed to fast lap times
and close racing in GPL (and who was on the Papyrus test team in fact for
this product), I'm very aware of some of the physics complexities that are
involved.  My question to you is similar to John's comment, with my cynical
British hat on, that so many developers have hyped their physics (and/or AI)
compared to the other products and within minutes of trying them, for one
reason or another, I am left feeling totally dissatisfied.  The problem is
the *** bikers, drivers, racers whatever amongst us have been spoiled
by the talent of the Papyrus team in their ability to create awesome
physics, control routines and computer AI, that virtually everything else
leaves us cold.  My concern is that the EA Superbike game didn't sell
particularly well, and that in my opinion contains "ok" physics, probably
the best bike physics available to the public, but to somebody who enjoys
real biking, it is still very limited as far as recreating the real
experience.  Sadly, I honestly believe that the GPL engine adapted to a bike
simulator would be almost impossible to use - therefore difficult to sell...
and canned "arcade-style" physics featuring wonderful pre-programmed spins,
slides, or in the case of bikes, low-sides, high-sides, whatever) just won't
impress me at all.  The delight of the GPL engine is that it is always
manipulating the many attributes of the car as a result of some fantastic
calculations of the player inputs, the vehicle and its surroundings.  What
the car does is always the sum of everything occuring around it, not the
other way around.  Anyway, enough rambling on, but if you're still reading
all this, good luck with your product - I am a natural cynic, but that only
increases the curiosity I have in all the new products - I'm certainly very
eager to try it and of course I'm looking forward to be impressed :)

All the best,
Mike (Yamaha R6)

Jo

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Jo » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to
>take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more
>speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of
>the front tyre is going to be :)  

You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two
joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for
leaning in any direction. Might take a bit of getting used to, but I
don't see how else it's possible to make a semi-realistic riding
experience (unless the leaning is done automatically, but that kind of
takes the fun and skill out of it).

Joe McGinn
==========================================
Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
==========================================

ymenar

More on GP 500 Physics....

by ymenar » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks
(the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing.  Turn the
joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front
wheel in that direction.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

DjFI

More on GP 500 Physics....

by DjFI » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00




> >The effort they are putting into the realism
> >of the physics is astounding. Please ignore the raving of people in this
> >newsgroup and elswhere on the web who are making uneducated guesses at
> >the physics based on a few stills they have seen.

> It's just natural cynisism, and perhaps understandable. I could list
> you quite a few products where precisely the effort you described
> above was put in, and yet an arcade turkey was the result. Feedback
> from drivers, tested by drivers, telemetry data, physics books and
> analysis, techniques and theory etc - made no difference untimately.

> The proof of the pudding will be in the eating as you say, and I think
> people should hold on and give them the benefit of the doubt at least,
> especially since although they have no track record of good products
> they have no track record of letting anyone down either!

> Looking forward to trying it :-)

> Cheers!
> John

Wait right there.  Microprose we are talking about here.  Quote "especially
since although they have no track record of good products."  Have you ever
heard of the best f1 racing sim to this date.  GP2.  created by none other
than microprose.  GP500 is not a geoff crammond game but I hope and suspect
this game will set a new level in motocycle road racing sims just like how
SBK did.  I also hope motosims.com would notice that their AMA Superbike game
will hit way less of a group of people compared to GP500 and SBK which are
world class championships.

DjFIL

ymenar

More on GP 500 Physics....

by ymenar » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


It still doesn't mean anything.  They are both different products, by
different teams

It's like saying that since Papyrus did GPL that every product that Papyrus
does it on the same level, which is not true as you can see all the titles
that were or will be released after GPL (NR99, Craftmans Truck, N3).

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

John Walla

More on GP 500 Physics....

by John Walla » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>Wait right there.  Microprose we are talking about here.  Quote "especially
>since although they have no track record of good products."  Have you ever
>heard of the best f1 racing sim to this date.  GP2.  created by none other
>than microprose.

Created by none other than Geoff Crammond - BOXED by none other than
Microprose. If I stuck you in a Manchester United jersey could you
play like David Beckham?

Cheers!
John

Jo

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Jo » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks
>(the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing.  Turn the
>joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front
>wheel in that direction.

Good point! People with rudder pedals could also use them for
side-to-side leaning. Still, it would be nice to have forward/back
analog leaning as well.

Joe McGinn
==========================================
Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com/
==========================================

Mick

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Mick » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Excellent post Mike I agree 100%

Now I wish they would stop recycling some of that great work and give us the new
stuff <g>

Mick in Tampa



> >In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward
> >and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt

> <all the good stuff snipped>

> Mark,

> Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to
> take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more
> speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of
> the front tyre is going to be :)   And you also need plenty of weight
> forward, under acceleration everything shifts back and you really got to
> keep that front tyre loaded as much as poss.  I've saved two tank slappers
> caused by a combination of too much speed on shoddy road quality in the last
> 100 miles on my bike, and it is seriously worrying when its happening.  But
> getting to the point, as somebody who is very accustomed to fast lap times
> and close racing in GPL (and who was on the Papyrus test team in fact for
> this product), I'm very aware of some of the physics complexities that are
> involved.  My question to you is similar to John's comment, with my cynical
> British hat on, that so many developers have hyped their physics (and/or AI)
> compared to the other products and within minutes of trying them, for one
> reason or another, I am left feeling totally dissatisfied.  The problem is
> the *** bikers, drivers, racers whatever amongst us have been spoiled
> by the talent of the Papyrus team in their ability to create awesome
> physics, control routines and computer AI, that virtually everything else
> leaves us cold.  My concern is that the EA Superbike game didn't sell
> particularly well, and that in my opinion contains "ok" physics, probably
> the best bike physics available to the public, but to somebody who enjoys
> real biking, it is still very limited as far as recreating the real
> experience.  Sadly, I honestly believe that the GPL engine adapted to a bike
> simulator would be almost impossible to use - therefore difficult to sell...
> and canned "arcade-style" physics featuring wonderful pre-programmed spins,
> slides, or in the case of bikes, low-sides, high-sides, whatever) just won't
> impress me at all.  The delight of the GPL engine is that it is always
> manipulating the many attributes of the car as a result of some fantastic
> calculations of the player inputs, the vehicle and its surroundings.  What
> the car does is always the sum of everything occuring around it, not the
> other way around.  Anyway, enough rambling on, but if you're still reading
> all this, good luck with your product - I am a natural cynic, but that only
> increases the curiosity I have in all the new products - I'm certainly very
> eager to try it and of course I'm looking forward to be impressed :)

> All the best,
> Mike (Yamaha R6)

Mike Laske

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Mike Laske » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00


>You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two
>joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for
>leaning in any direction. Might take a bit of getting used to, but I
>don't see how else it's possible to make a semi-realistic riding
>experience (unless the leaning is done automatically, but that kind of
>takes the fun and skill out of it).

You'd also need to be quite skilled to make your two hands perform
completely unnatural movements like that, with the degree of precision you'd
need - not sure I could do it!  I'd certainly consider some kind of
dedicated controller though, perhaps a knee attachment of some sort since
much of the work you do on a bike can be with your knees gripping the
tank... but it'd have to be one hell of a physics simulation to make me
splash out on buying something like that.

Mike.

Chris Schlette

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Chris Schlette » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Grab one of the arcade cycle games with and patch it through the gameport.
;)  It'd be really cool, but hardly feasible I'd assume...:)

Marty U'Re

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Marty U'Re » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I've been wondering how an effective controller for a bike sim would work. Mr.
ymeard is on to it.

There are two basic forces a rider uses to initiate a turn on a motorcycle.
Shifting his weight in the direction of the turn, and more importantly, apply
counter steer to the handle bars. Counter steer is the most important rider
action for control of turning. It produces the fastest response from the bike
and can be done independent of any 'leaning' weight shift. If a bike sim doesn't
use counter steer effectively it's not a good simulation of riding technique.

I think the MS Sidewider joystick could do this. Push the stick left to shift
weight left to turn left, and (this is the cool part) twist the stick right to
counter steer right to turn left. This if done well would be the GPL of bike
sims.

I can hardly wait!

Marty



> > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two
> > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for
> > leaning in any direction.

> I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks
> (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing.  Turn the
> joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front
> wheel in that direction.

Randy Wilso

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Randy Wilso » Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:00:00

<snip>> If I stuck you in a Manchester United jersey could you
Who cares, as long as the Spice Girl girlfriend didn't notice :) (Sorry
- don't know which one she is!)

Randy

Bob

More on GP 500 Physics....

by Bob » Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:00:00

I think YOUR on to something Marty! I was sitting here playing with my stick, :-)
(a Sidewinder FF) I was thinking how cool it would be to counter steer using the
"twist" axis. I'm hoping this is how its going to work!! I did a little test with
SBK (mentally) and found it to be very easy to coordinate a turn. Almost felt
natural in way! Can't wait to give this one a try.

Cheers
Bob


> I've been wondering how an effective controller for a bike sim would work. Mr.
> ymeard is on to it.

> There are two basic forces a rider uses to initiate a turn on a motorcycle.
> Shifting his weight in the direction of the turn, and more importantly, apply
> counter steer to the handle bars. Counter steer is the most important rider
> action for control of turning. It produces the fastest response from the bike
> and can be done independent of any 'leaning' weight shift. If a bike sim doesn't
> use counter steer effectively it's not a good simulation of riding technique.

> I think the MS Sidewider joystick could do this. Push the stick left to shift
> weight left to turn left, and (this is the cool part) twist the stick right to
> counter steer right to turn left. This if done well would be the GPL of bike
> sims.

> I can hardly wait!

> Marty



> > > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two
> > > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for
> > > leaning in any direction.

> > I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks
> > (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing.  Turn the
> > joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front
> > wheel in that direction.


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