rec.autos.simulators

FSAA = Disappointment

Tracey Mille

FSAA = Disappointment

by Tracey Mille » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got my board
yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed.

While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving it is
more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper
Racing, and this is what I saw:

In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA in Glide
mode on my V3 3000.

In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing
sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What
you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shape of
bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them.

I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more
distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I
discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up
completely, at random but frequent intervals.

In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees
are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the
lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice.

Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it back
anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too
high.

FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the
screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but
for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be
more of a problem than a solution.

evente..

FSAA = Disappointment

by evente.. » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

Very interesting info - thanks.  Glad I didn't rush out and buy the
card.  That's really interesting about the FSAA - I find little things
like that *really* distracting (I couldn't stand the stuttering in the
mirrors from the old GPL 1.0/V3 hack).
One question - did the fill-rate get cranked to where you could just run
GPL at a very high resolution?

Thanks,
Kendt

On a similar vein - can a GeForce-2 and V3 PCI peacefully co-exist in
the same system (with a switchbox for the monitor, of course)?



Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Victor Cha

FSAA = Disappointment

by Victor Cha » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

On the GeForce, I know that 32bit even at 800 x 600 is not playable on Rally Champ 2000.
In fact, not all games need FSAA.  Rally Champ 2000 seems fine without it.  Also, most
ingame menus do not work well when FSAA is enabled, even with MCM2.


Tracey Mille

FSAA = Disappointment

by Tracey Mille » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

I didn't even try it without FSAA yet, or above 1024x768. FPS didn't seem to
be an issue though, it was maxed out even with 4x FSAA and that's on my
lowly PIII 500.

For now I'm just going to put the $299 toward a new CPU, and shop for a
video card after 3Dfx gets the bugs worked out and we get some info on the
new ATI card.


> One question - did the fill-rate get cranked to where you could just run
> GPL at a very high resolution?

Don Scurlo

FSAA = Disappointment

by Don Scurlo » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

Thanks Tracey. I was VERY curious to know if this was going to be
what I'd hoped for, apparently not.



--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.

Tim Yuhas

FSAA = Disappointment

by Tim Yuhas » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

Kinda hard to be disappointed running gpl at 1600x1200
at full frame rates. What did you think the V5 was,
the Second coming.


> Thanks Tracey. I was VERY curious to know if this was going to be
> what I'd hoped for, apparently not.



> >After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got
> >my board yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed.

> >While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are
> >driving it is more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3,
> >GPL, and Viper Racing, and this is what I saw:

> >In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA
> >in Glide mode on my V3 3000.

> >In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in
> >racing sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good
> >thing. What you get is edges being straightened while you are
> >driving past, the shape of bridges and overpasses slightly change as
> >you approach them.

> >I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more
> >distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I
> >discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up
> >completely, at random but frequent intervals.

> >In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and
> >trees are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame,
> >because the lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice.

> >Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent
> >it back anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were
> >probably set too high.

> >FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn
> >to the screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the
> >distance, but for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real
> >-time" FSAA seems to be more of a problem than a solution.

> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.

Eric Cot

FSAA = Disappointment

by Eric Cot » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

Tracey, can you explain me something ??

I'm in the pre-order program, the card was due May 25th, which is today, but
3DFX delayed the sell due to small technical problem, and tehy delayed the sell
2 days ago... how did you got a card yesterday when it's was due for those who
pre-ordered  today, but unfortunatly delayed ???

I'm just curious...

Eric

http://www.simracingmag.com


> After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got my board
> yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed.

> While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are driving it is
> more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and Viper
> Racing, and this is what I saw:

> In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge AA in Glide
> mode on my V3 3000.

> In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA in racing
> sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good thing. What
> you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past, the shape of
> bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them.

> I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more
> distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where I
> discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks up
> completely, at random but frequent intervals.

> In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings and trees
> are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame, because the
> lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice.

> Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have sent it back
> anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably set too
> high.

> FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn to the
> screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the distance, but
> for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA seems to be
> more of a problem than a solution.

Thud

FSAA = Disappointment

by Thud » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

I think this should be looked at.
One thing I'm curious about is, are the shapes really being changed, or is
it an optical illusion.
I remember some arguments a while back, mainly in first-person shooters when
60+ fps became common, that many people complained the cards were drawing
"double" or ghost images, when in fact is was an illusion created with
fast-moving objects at a high framerate (the eye would see two consecutive
frames "simultaneously" and thus be tricked into seeing double).
Obviously this is a different effect, but I wonder if it's an illusion as
well, having to do with the perception of where the edge is,  and maybe a
little bit of Field of View distortion thrown in there (racing games usually
have a higher FOV angle).  Since edges by definition are already straight, I
don't see how they can actually become "straightened."

Naturally I haven't seen the effect for myself so I probably don't know what
I'm talking about.  I'm just speculating.


Tracey A Mille

FSAA = Disappointment

by Tracey A Mille » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

Pretty much, I thought FSAA would be the Holy Grail, especially for
the converted ICR2 tracks. I really bought into all the FSAA hype and
thought the screenshots looked fabulous.


Tracey A Mille

FSAA = Disappointment

by Tracey A Mille » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

It's really weird whatever it is, in Viper Racing it's pretty clear
that the shapes are changing, buildings seem to expand and implode as
you drive by.

In N3 you don't really notice anything, it just looks like the edge
AA. In GPL the trees and bushes seem to straighten up just a bit as
you approach, and the curved white lines on the track on the track
seem to be bending right at the point where the FSAA is taking place.

Overall it just seems like something is going on everywhere on the
screen as you drive. I bought this thing because I expected it to
clean every thing up and reduce eyestrain, but the FSAA seems to add
eye strain, at least in those 2 games.

Strangely, I just tried NASCAR 2000 and SCGT, and both of these games
benefit immensely from FSAA and the V5. N2000 was so jaggy before it
looked like a playstation game, but now it really looks nice.


> I think this should be looked at.
> One thing I'm curious about is, are the shapes really being changed,
or is
> it an optical illusion.
> I remember some arguments a while back, mainly in first-person
shooters when
> 60+ fps became common, that many people complained the cards were
drawing
> "double" or ghost images, when in fact is was an illusion created
with
> fast-moving objects at a high framerate (the eye would see two
consecutive
> frames "simultaneously" and thus be tricked into seeing double).
> Obviously this is a different effect, but I wonder if it's an
illusion as
> well, having to do with the perception of where the edge is,  and
maybe a
> little bit of Field of View distortion thrown in there (racing games
usually
> have a higher FOV angle).  Since edges by definition are already
straight, I
> don't see how they can actually become "straightened."

> Naturally I haven't seen the effect for myself so I probably don't
know what
> I'm talking about.  I'm just speculating.



> > After 6 months of looking forward to FSAA in the V5, I finally got
my
> board
> > yesterday and I'm extremely disappointed.

> > While it looks great in screen shots and replays, when you are
driving it
> is
> > more of an annoyance that a benefit. I tried it in N3, GPL, and
Viper
> > Racing, and this is what I saw:

> > In N3: Very little difference between FSAA and the software edge
AA in
> Glide
> > mode on my V3 3000.

> > In GPL: This is where I first realized the big shortfall of FSAA
in racing
> > sims. The FSAA is hyped as "real-time", but that isn't a good
thing. What
> > you get is edges being straightened while you are driving past,
the shape
> of
> > bridges and overpasses slightly change as you approach them.

> > I expected FSAA to "clean up" the screen, but it seems to add more
> > distraction than it eliminates. Unfortunately, this is also where
I
> > discovered why the card is being recalled. It crashes, just locks
up
> > completely, at random but frequent intervals.

> > In Viper: Even worse yet than GPL. No lockups, but the buildings
and trees
> > are constantly changing shape. Very distracting and a shame,
because the
> > lack of jaggies and pixel popping really does look nice.

> > Conclusion: I'm glad they did the recall, because I would have
sent it
> back
> > anyway. It's very disappointing, but my expectations were probably
set too
> > high.

> > FSAA would probably be fine in games where everything is pre drawn
to the
> > screen, or in flight simulators where objects are off in the
distance, but
> > for driving sims where objects are so nearby, "real-time" FSAA
seems to be
> > more of a problem than a solution.

Curl

FSAA = Disappointment

by Curl » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

say, you think you have a card with the "issues" that caused the shipping
delay?
Destro

FSAA = Disappointment

by Destro » Sat, 27 May 2000 04:00:00

And if you disable FSAA in these 2 games all looks normal?

David

FSAA = Disappointment

by David » Sun, 28 May 2000 04:00:00

I would urge everyone here not to make to quick of a judgment based on one
view.  Not saying this view is invalid but you guys know how computers
are....

-snip-

Dave Henri

FSAA = Disappointment

by Dave Henri » Sun, 28 May 2000 04:00:00

  I'm curious Tracey,
are you running SCGT and N2k in D3D mode or 3dfx?
I would think SCGT would benefit from AA especially
compared to N3.  Probably F12k would also clean up
nicely.
dave henrie

> Strangely, I just tried NASCAR 2000 and SCGT, and both of these games
> benefit immensely from FSAA and the V5. N2000 was so jaggy before it
> looked like a playstation game, but now it really looks nice.


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