rec.autos.simulators

Hi all,

I've only had my T2 for a few months (and already broke 2 springs!)
and I've just bought GP2.

What I'm really after is the most accurate simulation of driving an F1
car possible. Consequently, I have turned _all_ help off and set all
sensitivities and 'reduce with speeds' to zero. I am delighted with
the response so far and have bettered all my help-enabled times so far
- I really love the back end squirming and i find I can save more spin
outs than previously. However ...

The one bit I can't come to terms with is the steering sensitivity.
When set to 0%, the car weaves uncontrollably at almost any speed. I
rechecked steering axis calibration on the T2 and it doesn't seem any
noisier than when new. I find that the only way I can survive is to
set sensitivity to 5%. Even then, the response is very jerky.

What's worrying me is not the challenge of learning to live with the
weave but the certainty that a F1 car doesn't really handle like this
at all. My family saloon is very stable at 100mph and just watching
the races indicates that, although sensitive, real F1 cars are equally
stable at this speed.

I would really appreciate any comments/suggestions on this matter..

Thanks in anticipation

--
Neil Charlton      

http://www.racesimcentral.net/;
--

[snip]
: The one bit I can't come to terms with is the steering sensitivity.
: When set to 0%, the car weaves uncontrollably at almost any speed. I
: rechecked steering axis calibration on the T2 and it doesn't seem any
: noisier than when new. I find that the only way I can survive is to
: set sensitivity to 5%. Even then, the response is very jerky.

: What's worrying me is not the challenge of learning to live with the
: weave but the certainty that a F1 car doesn't really handle like this
: at all. My family saloon is very stable at 100mph and just watching
: the races indicates that, although sensitive, real F1 cars are equally
: stable at this speed.

I think you need to raise the speed sensitivity.  I'm still learning the
tracks and car setups.  But I have found that playing with the various
"sensitivities" is well worth it.  You might want to load up the
attached T1_TEST.CON and start adjusting from there.  I really don't
think it is a "cheat" to play with the sensitivity levels.  On the real
cars I am sure that the steering can be adjusted also, along with the
brakes and accelerator.

begin 644 t1_test.con
MOJ$]A0(                                    & 3( #% ," $R" %&

end

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I would suggest that you pump up the steering sensitivity at least a bit.
Even the higher quality potentiometers in the T2 are not fine enough to
give you the kind of control that the fly-by-wire steering systems in real
F1 cars have. I think you need to have at least a small bit of sensitivity
cushion to eliminate the small fluctuations and noise that are a part of
the way joystick input is programmed on the PC.

Personally I run the sensitivity at 50% and the highspeed adjustment at
70%, yes you may now call me wimpy <G>, but that is the only wimpy
setting I have on, all other driving aids are now off.

This has proved very helpful in reducing the number of times I go into
a spin as I apply throttle exiting a chicane or tight turn.

My personal observation of real F1 cars in the races is that they are
pretty dodgy in the high speed straights, I am always amazed at how much
those bumps on the straights seem to throw the car off at high speeds.

If you do manage to get consistent results with the settings at 0%, then
my hat off to you.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

For gas and brake sensitivity, I've found that I have better accelleration
and faster braking with 0-10% sensitivity. However that comes at the
expense of easier spins and lockups. You can get around this being a little
more gradual with the throttle. When braking, I find that I can brake later
and hold the brakes just until the wheels start to squeel and then let off
(sometimes gradually) to negotiate the turn.

===========================================================
Alex Fernandez
MTS
Lucent Technologies
No. Andover, MA
email:

tel: (508)960-6510
===========================================================

[s]

At high speed an F1 car will be more difficult to turn, ie you will have
to push harder on the steering than at a low speed. You don't get the
benefit of this with the current generation of simulators, and in that
sense the 'reduce with speed' option should (IMO) be used to make the
car less sensetive at higher speed.

--
Suck The Goat

[snip]
Many thanks to John, Michael and Alex for your repsonses. I am very
happy with the 0%on throttle and brake but I do agree - I'll have to
stick with some sensitivity on the steering. I seem to be OK with 5%
and this enables snap reactions to step-outs.

I'd really love a ride in a Williams just to compare the feel - don't
suppose anyone knows of an available ride ;-)

Thanks again for the replies.

--
Neil Charlton      

http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/  
--

Thanks for the reply - that's an _excellent_ point. I now feel
justified in keeping my 5% ;-)

BTW, I'll pass on sucking the goat if you don't mind.

Regards.

--
Neil Charlton      

http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/  
--

--
--- Terje Wold Johansen

--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/
--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry, but in real F1 cars the steering is entirely mechanical, they
don't have power steering and they require a good degree of effort
(well, your gran probably wouldn't want to drive it to the bingo) to
make them turn at all, let alone when they are moving at speed.

--
Suck The Goat

Ah, I was reading the other day about the fly-by-wire throttle and
brake control on the Williams and I assumed the steering would be the
same.

Thanks for the info, glad to see at least some of the control isn't
left entirely up to the computers. Remind me never to challenge a F1 driver
to an arm wrestling match if I ever meet one.

Cheers.

--John
--
-------------------
  John (Joao) Silva
  http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jsilva
  Seattle, Washington USA.

: What I'm really after is the most accurate simulation of driving an F1
: car possible. Consequently, I have turned _all_ help off and set all
: sensitivities and 'reduce with speeds' to zero. I am delighted with
: the response so far and have bettered all my help-enabled times so far
: - I really love the back end squirming and i find I can save more spin
: outs than previously. However ...

you realize that those sensitivity and reduce with speed settings are not
helps but instead are there to help cope with the inconsistancies and
lack of throw of PC-based automotive control devices.  You will probably
find a MORE realistic driving experience by setting up those settings to
a setting where you feel comfortable.  Watch some in-car camera footage.
F1 cars are DEFINATELY stable vehicles to drive, considering most drivers
jerk their steering wheels like there's no tomorrow.

so, while steering help is definately fake, sensitivity and
speed-reduction aren't.  Get in an F1 car and drive up to 200mph, then
try to turn the wheel full lock.. tough to turn isnt it?

i'm very happy with speed-based dampened steering from my T1.. as far as
sensitivity is concerned, set it so your PC's inaccuracies while reaidng
the joystick port timings (those numbers always jitter) dont interfere
with your racing, and the wheel feels comfortable for you.

--
-------
Carlos Ribas
President
MalSoft
http://www.nol.net/~draconis

Apart from the engine management and some gearbox functions, the control
a driver has over an F1 car should be considered complete. The cars
electronics will not stop the driver overstepping the mark and exceeding
the performance envelope.

Don't challenge them to anything physical. These guys are very fit
indeed. I can't go a 50% distance race in GPII without pausing for a
quick fag (that's a cigarette for american readers) and a bite on a
pork pie.

--
Suck The Goat

[snip]
Standard T2. and, unfortunately, my problem was that I _ouldn't_
control it at zero %. I'm currently running at 5% and although it's a
little twitchy, I.m now sub 1:20 at Hungaroring. I'll stick with this
setting for a while.

It seems to me that wheels designed for SIMs would benefit from a
digital encoder wheel, with the output passed through a DAC. I think I
might try it on the T2. This really ought to give the equivalent of a
noiseless pot. I would think an eight bit encoder wheel would do the
trick. If I can stop racing for long enough and try this out, I'll
report the results.

Regards

--
Neil Charlton      

http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/  
--

Seems like the makings of a very simple and robust controller- has
anybody ever make a wheel/pedal system using the mouse port and mouse
hardware? I would think the mouse stuff would outlast any
potentiometers many orders of magnitude. Cheap, too.