rec.autos.simulators

Given that you it is impossible for a company to chase and prosecute
everyone who infringes their license, do you think a company would
prosecute someone making a program for free, or a program which makes money
from their intellectual property?

Licensing is a very strange beast, and I myself have probably infringed the
Papyrus license a hundred times by posting grabbed pictures on SimNews,
hacking around in the software or whatever. Just because I don't pay enough
attention to it doesn't nullify it, ignorance is not an excuse. Now Papyrus
have chosen to ignore that (I hope!) because it is publicising their
product, AND I receive no money for it. If SimNews had been an over the
counter purchase then both Marc and I would have looked a hell of a lot
more closely at what we could and couldn't publish.

In the US people are sued every day for tripping over slightly raised
sidewalks - I think a converter that messes around with Papyrus property
would be a snap for a first year law student.

--
Cheers!
John (SRN-Europe)
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address before replying...)

I was just wondering if everybody is gonna go irrate when Papyrus ask for $$$
for their track pack?

Are we all assuming that is gonna be free?

:)

Q.B.M.

On Sun, 18 May 1997 23:04:00 -0400 Alex Santantonio
has put many hours into this and : is only asking for compensation.  I can
see not paying for painted cars : but this is different, if he wants to
give it out that is his choice, : but if he wants us to pay, that is fine
too.  This is a fine program and : many months of very hard work was put
into it.  I feel like he deserves : some sort of compensation, too amny
people out there want somthing for : nothing.

I wasn't going to wade into this mess, but... (that's never stopped me
before <g>).

First, I will defend Dave the right to make money any "legal" way he can.

I take slight umbrage about thinking that the amount of time and effort
that one puts into creating an excellent carset is any less than a
"programmer/hacker".  Heck, it would be nice to have $1.00 for each person
who uses mine and Richard's carset.  I would use that money to get a
paddock pass to the Portland race and be able to make better cars.

The real issue here is one of "community".  In has been the glorious
history of this community of sim racers to pour "***, sweat, and tears"
into making these sims more enjoyable and "realistic".  In the past this
has been done as a labor of love.  Everything has been freely shared with
the community.  These people even share their techniques for free with
others providing the same types of utilities.  This is my real concern,
are we going to "convert" this community into a little hot-bed  of greedy
capitalism?!  Or are we going to continue to provide  "excellent"
utilities and "enhancements" in a sharing manner?

I do not want to see the spirit that has made this community what it is,
shattered.

[just my $.02 worth -- put 'em all in a jar and someday you'll be rich
<G>]

--  **************************** Michael E. Carver
*************************      Upside out, or inside down...False alarm

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-
< ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <

Don't worry about it.  (See recent post)  Somebody has already made this
program in essence free.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------

Jason Nichols-Commissioner

SportSim Football League:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~taylorj/Football/

SSFL Information Center:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------

On Mon, 19 May 1997 22:01:02 +0100, "David Noonan"

Shane Lansky

Hobart,Tasmania
Australia

snipped.. we all know what its about...
More snipped and we still know what its about..:-)

Well Michael after reading your post your right 100% Its the general
racing comunity that has made this and most other sims alot of extra
fun with the utils and car set that you all have made for the uuuummmm
well lets say not so artistic ones and us non programmers. If everyone
charged then I would be in debt till the turn of the next century..:-)
to you lot. I was thinking he has the right to charge and as you say
he still has but in the end it does make it a money hungry world.
After all it converts tracks from one program to another and for an
extra 40 dollars Aussie I could buy another N2. After thinking about
it at about 50% of what the N2 program is from the shops it is on the
dear side....

Shane Lansky

Hobart,Tasmania
Australia

Please correct me if I've got this wrong, but by that rational you are
stating that the effort Dave put to create this converter must exceed any
effort which has gone before, since he is the only one asking payment.

More effort than "The Pits"?! More than Gerhard's converters? More than
Tony John's put into IWCCCARS?!

Whether or not one asks to get paid has nothing to do with the relative
effort you put in. On an individual basis you may decide to put a greater
amount of effort if someone is paying you, but you cannot then equate that
to what someone else will do.

--
Cheers!
John (SRN-Europe)
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address before replying...)

You're just totally wrong here. In the long run you have a community in
which everyone tries try do their best to help others etc. etc., *or* you
have a community in which everyone asks money and helping others just to
help will be gone, far gone.
As long as the spirit of helping for free is there, everything is fine.
However, as soon as someone starts asking money for utilities like this,
however great they may be, that will definately be the start of the
'commercialisation' of the simracing community. You won't be able to stop
this sad trend anymore, more & more guys will start asking money and
destroying the 'help & have fun' spirit of this otherwise great community.

*Unless* we react to these kinds of actions fiercely.

Of course he deserves acknowledgement for his work. But when we're going
this way, we're going just the same way as the total Internet is going:
commercialisation & grief. If that's the way we want to go, I have nothing
left to say.

This is not my opinion, it is a fact supported by science! ;-)

--

Formula T2 Upgrade Page - http://huizen.dds.nl/~jjcox

This is pathetic and I urge all people with add-on and carsets to start
charging. Maybe a yearly subscription of $10-$20 to a web page or such.

To think this area has some type of magical rights to stay free is crazy.
Please bring these free loaders to their knees, they need a dose of reality.
And in the end they'll learn a valuable leason. To keep you yap quite and be
thankful for free stuff.

Q.B.M.

IMO it's difficult to make a statement like yours, without drawing
some sort of boundries for what is black, white, and what's a grey
area.  It's akin to making a statement that "I'm totally honest", or
perhaps "I have never sinned", all with the added tag of "it's a
matter of principle."

If Papyrus or Sierra deemed in writing that any converted track or
modified carset is an infringement on theirs or others copyright
(which in a technical sense it is - according to Papyrus), then you
would be forced to delete nearly every add-on or utility designed
for these sims.

This note isn't to flame or judge you or your ideas...I do admire
your belief that you would not intentionally be dishonest.  I'm simply
making an obsevation of the grey areas.  =)

Best Regards,

Marc

Marc J. Nelson
Sim Racing News - USA

<snip>
: Of course he deserves acknowledgement for his work. But when we're going
: this way, we're going just the same way as the total Internet is going:
: commercialisation & grief. If that's the way we want to go, I have nothing
: left to say.

That's the real frightening part.  I remember when the internet was
"almost" free of all the commerical garbage we now have to wade through
each moment on the net.  I remember the great "free" spirit of programs,
patches, utilities for linux.  When Win95 first came out most of the
best utilities were provided in the same manner, sharing for "free" in
the old community spirit of the internet.   Guess, I'm just getting old.
;-)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Again I must say this is nonsense, a paranoid fantasy. Look at Quake.
I can buy commercial addon levels at the store. And yet that hasn't
stopped the proliferation of free addons I can download from the net.

If you really wanted to promote sharing I'd reccomend getting on
Papyrus/Sierra's back for not using open standards and encouraging
addons the way ID does. That would be far more beneficial than
criticizing those who have managed to create something useful despite
Papyrus' opposition to addons for their sims.

Joe

Joe

Michael Carver has perfectly described what bothers me,  what I fear.
See my post,  "Final word on the ICR2 -> N2 Track Converter,  I *hope*..." on more about the
subject.

Mark
SimSpeed
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Joe

What's that got to do with anything? I know emergency services
volunteers who put tememendous effort, with no pay, into their work.
Does that mean professional firemen and policemen shouldn't be paid?

Joe