rec.autos.simulators

I haven't read much here but...

If I'm correct that a person has a utility to convert tracks from ICR2 to N2.

Now if he wants to sell it let him do it. If Papy has a problem with that let
them handle it.

Now I for one think the product is easily worth money if it does a good job of
what it says it does.

He's entitled to his dollars. And I'd buy it in a heartbeat if it's good,
which I'll be checking out soon enough. You have the choice not to purchase it
if you don't like it.

I feel some of the program add-ons should be sold for at least a modest price,
why not? I'd be more than happy to give a few dollars to people with good
add-ons.

Q.B.M.

You see, Thats why God created legitimate jobs. It is illegal without the
expressed permission of
Papyrus. You see, it is called theft. Can you understand this very
simplistic concept

It's best to leave you all to discuss the issues (and the above is mature
and reasoned) , but please people do not
e-mail me with abusive and threatening post.
That in itself IMHO is worse than anything I've done and I don't deserve
it.

At present it seems to have been a terrible mistake to have even written
the converter.

Dave Noonan

It's best to leave you all to discuss the issues (and the above is mature
and reasoned) , but please people do not
e-mail me with abusive and threatening post.
That in itself IMHO is worse than anything I've done and I don't deserve
it.

At present it seems to have been a terrible mistake to have even written
the converter.

Dave Noonan

I also feel that this will be a great additional program to enhance an
otherwise good game.  But I can't help thinking about the other people who
created the groundwork for this type of program and they didn't ask for
compensation for their time.  If the creator of this converter wants
monetary compensation, he should go through the copyright procedures and
sell it in stores not over the internet.  I for one will not be purchasing
his program.

Very well said Michael. And your contributions as well as Gerhardts is very
much appreciated in the Sim community.

Hi Rob,

He isn't selling a Papy/Sierra product, just a utility that will "read"
from one sim, and then translate it for the other.  What you would
pay for then is David's "translation", and it's his right to do so.

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
The Sim Project

I Agree he has the right to charge for the converter  as long as royalties
are being paid to Papyrus !  That is the
free market system also.

Can you understand that he doesn't require Papyrus/Sierra's permission
for the TYPE of program he's created?  FWIW to you, it doesn't contain
any Papyrus propriatary code, so thus does not infringe on thier
copyright.

Best Regards,

Marc J. Nelson
The Sim Project

You say he is greedy, I say you are a bunch of whining leeches.  
Who is to say which of us is correct.

You want the full version, pay for it.  If not, then don't.  

It is not theft to modify a program you already own.  It is theft if you
modify said program then distribute the modified program.  You can't very
well steal something you already own.  If this were theft, then why weren't
all the people responsible for the N1 - ICR converters, the track
converters, etc, etc, prosecuted? And why would it be ok for them to give
the converter away for free, but not sell it? By your reasoning, this would
still be theft.

The main *** here isn't that he is dribituting his program, but that he
has the gall to ask for some compensation for his work.

Oh, BTW, software engineering is a legitimate job.

Well all I've heard is Money this and Money that. Where the H*** is this
guys Home Page so I can DL the Track Converter and pay him his MONEY that
I'm sure he well deserves.

SG

Is that actually the case Marc?

I'm no lawyer but I would have thought that there's a difference between
giving something away and making profit from it. I find it hard to imagine
that you'd be able to make money from the Portland track or NASCAR2 without
being legally obligated to give some money to the track owner and/or
Papyrus, and to ask them for permission in advance? Look what happened with
Daytona and that was free! If Jed had been charging people, even if the
program had picked up bits of Papyrus code and moved them around, I'm 100%
sure that Papyrus would have had something to say about it even if Daytona
hadn't.

It's a bit of a shame considering that Gerhard and Jed kicked all this off
and are help up as the "gods of sim-racing hacking", but Dave is being
attacked for doing almost the same thing. I personally think that he is
reasonable in asking for something for his efforts, but that in turn
implies he must support the program and make sure it works on everyone's
system that he selss it to, offers refunds, upgrades etc etc. He must also
have guessed that the response would be mixed (to say the least) and given
that people pirate software when they have no axe to grind, hoping to keep
the full version from being posted to binaries is utopian thinking.

Hopefully this storm in a teacup will blow over soon once everyone is
satisfied that their opinion has been heard.

--
Cheers!
John (SRN-Europe)
(Remove "NOSPAM" from address before replying...)

Just to try and clarify this one more time for those who cant seem to
understand it, Dave's program has NO papyrus programming in it, HE wrote
it it belongs to DAVE, he is selling ONLY his program. he is NOT selling
converted tracks nor is he selling anything that belongs to
papyrus/sierra or any track owner in the world.

if you don't want to pay for Dave's programming, DONT PAY FOR IT.

If you want to use the tracks from ICR2 in your N2 game, then by all
means buy his program, and convert your own tracks over and use them
accordingly. It is perfectly legal. there are no copywrite infringements
here since he is not selling anything that was created by someone else.

Now, can we please stop ***ing about this subject and give Dave the
Congratulations he deserves for making one really awesome conversion
program? His stuff works and works well. Stop harrassing and pissing and
moaning and thank him for adding to the enjoyment factor.

If you don't think he deserves to be paid for it...go to work and tell
them you dont need a paycheck..they'll gladly keep it for you.

Nuff said

TrenT

--
CatchMeIfU.........................Can