rec.autos.simulators

FWIW I've yet to see one that isn't complete and utter crap, however IHO
of those you mention the Microsoft was probably the least awful.  It's
kind of like asking which horseman of the apocalypse is your favorite...

Eric

Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits.
Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech.
I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they
reliable?
Or can anyone direct me to a website where they are reviewed and compared.
Thanks

Terry

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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:43:17 +0100, "Terry Winstone"

Hi Terry,

The following is a (slightly edited) quote from a post I wrote earlier
regarding the Logitech wheel.  I've reused it because my opinions
haven't changed much since the original post.  Good Luck!

I have the Logitech, and I would recommend it.  

Understanding that the pedals are, easily, the biggest drawback, I
never thought they were as horrible as some say.  The travel is short,
the resistance is light, but man, I've tried a lot of wheels out
there, and these pedals, off the shelf, felt as good as any to me.
Whoever reviewed them and used the term "almost digital," was
exaggerating, close to the point of a lie, IMHO.  Also, the Logitech
control utility allows for sensitivity adjustment through software.
In GPL, I run the brake pedal somewhere near 50% sensitivity, with
very nice results.  I can mash the brake to just a hint of locking and
release, and I do exactly this when driving, repeatedly.  I think
spring tension could help me here, so I might go for a heavier brake
spring. (more below)

I really liked the distance of travel of the MS wheel's pedals, but
they slipped around on me, and the whole base felt a little "top
heavy," for lack of a better description.  By this, I mean, if I were
to mash the accelerator "vigorously", the base would tip.  Not
acceptable to me.  The downward motion of the Logitech pedals allow me
to go ape on the accelerator if I so choose, with no problem.

I run decent lap times in GPL, and I feel I have very acceptable
control of the accel/brake with the Logitech pedals.  In running
various Thrustmaster models, and the Saitek FF wheel(especially), it
seemed to me that the pedal travel was much shorter and harder to
control precisely.  Maybe that's just me, everyone else in RAS seems
happy with their Thrustmasters, and I know TM makes a decent product,
and supports it.

The FF of the MS wheel was *much* stronger than the Logitech, but the
MS wheel itself - on the uncoated parts - felt too cheaply built;
reminiscent of my old Interact V3.  (which I still think was a great
wheel for $60. :)  So, for the price that they are asking for these
things, I was not ready to accept a cheap feel.

The Logitech is a keeper for me, mainly because the pedal travel is
the only complaint I have with it; everything else about the wheel I
really do like.  The pedal travel was still good enough to not be a
deal breaker.  The wheel itself has a heavy, quality feel,
the paddles are excellent, and the wheel performs flawlessly in
everything that I use it for, which is mainly GPL and Viper Racing.
It does not work with one of the Papy NASCAR sims that run in DOS
mode, but I don't run it.  Be aware of it, though.

I am actually using the serial port in spite of the USB, purely for
the fact that I don't feel like patching Win95 OSR2 to support it, and
I really don't want Win98.  I have run it on 98 with USB, and either
way, I have absolutely no jitters in GPL.  None.

Lastly (finally!), I have had no problem with the Logitech's stock
resistance, but lately, I've been entertaining the idea of heavier
springs, just to make sure I'm not missing something good. :)  AFAIK,
no one has tried the tennis ball trick with these pedals (anyone?),
because the springs are easily replaceable with heavier springs.

Good Luck!

Brett

Nice attitude.  I'm sure we can expect FF support from
Papyrus real soon.

--
------------------------------------------------------

IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html
------------------------------------------------------

You can get your hands on a refurbished Saitek R4 Force wheel direct
from Saitek for $99 US.  A lot of people have mixed feelings about the
Saitek wheel, but I really like mine -- it's great for Viper Racing,
IMO.

If you'd like to find out more about the $99 offer and see my full
review, go here:

http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/saitek/

Enjoy!

-- John Bodin

On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:43:17 +0100, "Terry Winstone"

I have a MSFF wheel, its good for most games, but I find that its slightly
notchy, which is a disadvantage in GPL which requires very small movements
around centre. The wheel seems to be well made and I have had no problems
with it.
The biggest advantage to non FF games is the absolute accuracy of the
optical sensors over analogue pots.
The wheel seems very good with some FF games (Viper Racing being the best at
the moment), while not so good in others such as CPR (which just gives
arcadey effects IMO )
The pedals have a good range of movement and don't move around.
The wheel has 270 degrees of movement (or thereabouts) and I like the
paddles on the back though they may not suit someone with small hands,
they're a bit far in.

Another good point is that you can change from split to combined pedals
using the sidewinder software, so there is no messing with the Windows game
controllers and moving switches on the hardware, you can also setup each of
the buttons on the wheel to do different functions in each game.

If I could just eliminate the notchiness (is that a word ?), the wheel would
be everything I need, but I feel it's just enough of a problem with GPL to
stick with non FF at the moment, or have a non FF for use with GPL.

--
Ian Parker

ICQ   21772592

Be sure and "test drive" the wheel if you can.

The ergonomics vary widely for me, in terms of
how easy it is to grip for long periods, the angle
of the wheel's axis to my table, etc. You can also compare
how easy it is to inadvertently unplug it
(cord arrangement), how easy it is to slide the
foot pedals on your carpet, the strength of default
centering forces, how easy is it to clamp and unclamp
to the desk, and how much rigamarole you have to
go through each reboot to calibrate it.

After seeing some good and also some rather
annoying wheels, these "little" ergonomic issues
have become much more important to me than the
more obvious ones of button arrangement, etc.
--
Matthew V. Jessick         Motorsims

Vehicle Dynamics Engineer  (972)910-8866, Fax: (972)910-8216

I would echo most of what you say about the Logitech wheel.  I got one last
week and find that the pedals are a weak point, as they seem to be with just
about everything else.  Force effects seemed to be stronger and improved
after I downloaded the latest Profiler software and drivers, compared with
what came with the wheel.  My solution to the pedal problem is pretty
simple--I take my shoes off and use the pedals barefoot.  The pedals fit a
big toe just fine, and the light springs are then just about right. I've
been happy as a clam with them ever since. OK, OK, after you stop laughing,
try it and see. <g>

BTW, I see now what rrevved has been raving about with the FF in Viper
racing.  Bad thing is I'm having to learn how to  drive in that sim all over
again--but I'm loving it!

Jerry Morelock

< snip>

Time for a pill... :-)

LOL.    FWIW, i agree with you Eric.   I would much prefer a decent
non-ff wheel to any of the current crop of ff models available at the
moment.
They are poorly designed for the present technology levels, and  the
build and workmanship of all of them, still leaves a lot to be desired.
If Microsoft put out a non-ff version of their optical pick-up wheel,
and put a bit more love and care, (see Thomas or ECCI), into it, i
would probably look at it, but at the moment the current crop of arcade
wigglers doesn't do much for me...
Not to mention the software, (or lack of it),  implementation of these
wiggly things.    AT present they act like a deformed ***...
Disclaimer:  This is  my opinion only guys/gals...  :-)
The future can only look brighter.  :-)
Cheers,
Ron

I've tried Viper with just about every FF wheel on the market (the only
notable exception being the Saitek, but I doubt it would be
significantly different).  No matter how well implemented FF effects my
be, it doesn't change the fact that the wheels themselves just don't
feel right.  The internal mechanics of these wheels have a LONG way to
go as each and everyone I've tried feels very cheap and mechanical (you
can actually feel the gears, belts, servos, whatever as you turn).  I'll
stick with a non-FF wheel until things dramatically improve.

Eric

It has nothing to do with Papy, just my personal take on the current
crop of FF wheels.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Eric

Hmm, I could feel the silly *** bands in the TM line as well, didn't
make it useless, of course.

Well, Sierra has another company (MGI) that knows how to use the current
FF wheels to increase immersion...

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.racesimcentral.net/;

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       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

The super sensitivity in the steering of GPL is what's wrong, not the wheel.
No one drove those '67 cars the way we do in GPL.

David G Fisher

GPL is an excellent sim.

No?

http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html

--Dave

--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://users.wi.net/~schwabe