rec.autos.simulators

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

e

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by e » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 17:06:09

I've been playing alot of NASCAR HEAT, but I finally got around to
playing NASCAR 4.  I picked this up a couple of weeks ago, but my
computer has been down so I really didn't play it much for more than a
few minutes to see if it woudl run.  I tried it out tonight and
something just rubbed me the wrong way about it, and I uninstalled it
after playing it for a few hours.

 Some things I don't like:

- Sparse options
  - No tire wear or gas options for those of us who don't want to
spend a couple hours racing
  - No speed sensitivity settings, except in the core.ini file, and
then it only reduces the low-sensitivity speed.  I thought real NASCAR
cars had power steering?
  - No "skip to the racing" startup like HEAT.  I just find a lap that
doesn't count boring.  And I always end up wrecking during the pace
lap. Something is wrong with the way AI cars drive.  It seems like
they really don't pay any attention.
  - Two difficulty settings, arcade and simulation- with nothing in
between
- With 3D sound enabled, I get horrible loud pops or scratchy sounds
when I hit the wall sometimes.  I'm using a Philips Dynamic Edge
soundcard.  It works OK with just stereo sound, though.

  Some things I like

- Uses hardware T&L, NASCAR HEAT doesn't.  Consequently it seems like
there's less popup and faster framerates in N4.
- 32 bit color.  Not only more color depth, but I can get antialiasing
to work with my video card.

  Now, this game may be a blast to play in multiplayer, and it's a
well respected game, but in singleplayer offline racing, it just seems
lacking.  Graphics seems faster and more fluid than NASCAR HEAT on my
Athlon 2400 and Radeon 9700, but the number of gameplay options aren't
quite as good.

  I downloaded the Nascar Thunder 2003 demo to try out and I actually
thought that it was enjoyable enough.  I liked the feel of the menus
and the options- I'm surprised so many reviewers were *** it.  It
sucks there's no career mode like the PS2, though, but maybe if it
gets a good enough PC reception they will add it next year or as a
patch. I'm betting the publishers/devs thought (perhaps correctly?) a
career mode would have appealed less to PC gamers where internet
*** gets more of the spotlight.  Often the silent majority doesn't
get heard.  On consoles it seems to be a trend, on the other hand, to
have career based games.

 So is NASCAR 2003 going to be any different than NASCAR 4 in the
playability, or should I get Nascar Thunder in a few months (my
pocketbook is still stinging from a mandatory computer upgrade when my
motherboard gave up the ghost)?

Marc Collin

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Marc Collin » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:51:42

Try NR2002 if you like.  The feel and physics are updated from "4".  2003
will be updated again.

Marc


Biz

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Biz » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:05:59

I see your points and some are quite valid EXCEPT for the fact that N4, and NR2002, and assumably
NR2003TFE are meant to be simulators, so they are attempting to simualte the Nascar expereince as
best they can, not create an arcady type game.  IF you don't like N4, you probably win't like
NR2002, or NR2003 when it comes out either, as they are the same just more refined, and they didn't
add anymore arcade type functions.  Although if you choose quick race, it does eliminate some of the
realism things you don't seem to like.
--
Biz

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash


Jan Verschuere

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:08:59

Sorry for re-arranging your message, but it makes replying easier.

N4 did present a fair number of well-documented single player issues, so
it's rather surprising you chose to buy it rather than it's sequel, NASCAR
Racing 2002 Season (or N2002 or N2k2 as it's commonly referred to over here)
which has been out since late February (I think). Apart from being the
better overall game (general execution/graphics/framerate consistency) a lot
of the single player issues with AI and pace car were resolved (also by
subsequent patch). There remain some perceived inaccuracies with regard to
car control at the very limit and aerodynamics, the latter only really
affecting online play.

Seeing as N2k2's successor, N2003 promises to be even better, I think it's
safe to say it will seriously outclass N4.

It might be a good idea to consult RAS before buying a simulation rather
than coming here to complain about it afterwards.

You could do worse than buying NT2003 if you don't really care about total
realism and the online aspect, IMO.

Eh? Controller configuration is the most competent in just about any sim,
you can set/tweak graphics quality and sound and get to create modify your
player and his car. What further options would you like to see?

Granted, accellerated wear would, IMO, be a fairly easy to implement knod
towards the "not quite so serious" PC racer.

They do, but even so the range of speeds on an oval is low and the low speed
overide was only ever intented to compensate for the lack of physical lock
on PC wheel/pedal combo's so as to get the car in and out of the pits (low
speed cornering). On the road courses... let's put it this way: I really
enjoy the way the cars handle on those, but the response is nowhere near
precise or direct enough to warrant speed sensitivity on the wheel.

That's hardly the game's fault, is it? -Come on... how hard is driving a car
at 45mph? Your granny can do that. Even in N4 the AI did a good job of
pacing to the first green. I agree that because they all stay exactly lined
up and allways have perfect launches it's not nearly as interesting as doing
the same against human players online, but then again offline racing in
general isn't.

Heat was completely unplayable unless one had auto driving/pitting under
yellow turned on as the AI would simply run the player over. N4 for was
pretty bad at some tracks, but not *that* bad. A patch reputedly fixes
Heat's woes, but I haven't gotten around to trying that yet.

Largely fixed in N2k2.

There's an ample selection of driving aids and AI strenght is on a sliding
scale, it just doesn't come with labels. Over here, we tend to judge drivers
according to how they are, not by what setting they got their game at.

Again: N2k2...

Although, suddenly, I'm not sure whether sound issues remain or not... I'm
sure if there are, somebody here will set me straight.

I'm not sold on 32-bit colour, nor FSAA, but I'm an fps junkie.

Again: why chose N4 over N2k2?

That's actually the impression I got from the reviews, competent
interfaceand enjoyable enough, just not as good a simulation as N2k2 and
with limited online playability.

I do think there has been an "overtendency" to focus on the online aspect in
games in general. Now the online aspect is well established I think we're
beginning to see a trend to take care of the offline game more. Which is a
good thing, obviously, although I personally don't care about a single
player career mode.

Jan.
=---

Mike Grand

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Mike Grand » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:35:25

You just named all the things that seperates it from an arcade game. As for
the sound, that card was not available when the sim was made. Hard to
support the future.

--
Mike Grandy
www.precision-racing.com

John Simmon

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by John Simmon » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:02:46



Hmmm, just a few hours?  And only Nascar Racing 4?  You're a version
behind.

What do you mean?

It's been that way since NR3...

I don't understand what you're looking for.

You can choose not to do a full pace lap.  The pace lap will begin on
the back straight (or before the final turn on a road course).

And your point is?

Get a new sound card.

That's because it's not as much a game as Heat is.

See, that's that problem.  You're not a sim driver.  You're a
"gamer".  Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing
series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's
on the hood and a grenade launcher.

Go ahead and get Thunder.  That way, we don't have to listen to
incesant whining about the AI being "lacking", or about the lack of
"gameplay options".

Goy Larse

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Goy Larse » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:49:56

Those Diplomacy 1-0-1 classes you've been taking lately has done wonders
for you John :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"

"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Nick

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Nick » Sun, 08 Dec 2002 23:53:03


I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is
looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003.

John Simmon

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by John Simmon » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:03:00





> > See, that's that problem.  You're not a sim driver.  You're a
> > "gamer".  Gamers will never be happy with the Papy's Nascar Racing
> > series because they don't want realism settings. They want twin-50's
> > on the hood and a grenade launcher.

> I resent that, as both a dedicated GPL/GTR2002 racer *and* a guy who is
> looking forward to Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 more than NR2003.

Yeah, but the difference is that you don't try to blur the line
between "***" and "sim driving".  The line is distinct and cannot
be obfuscated.  When you're driving in any of Papy's racing sims, you
can't reasonably expect flowery bells and whistles, and whining about
their absence is fairly pointless (and just plain annoys the sim
drivers).
John Simmon

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by John Simmon » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:03:51


says...


> Those Diplomacy 1-0-1 classes you've been taking lately has done wonders
> for you John :-)

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy
> "goyl at nettx dot no"

> "The Pits"       http://www.theuspits.com/

> "A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
> --Groucho Marx--

Yeah, in that class, we learned not to start out with name calling
and overt threats of bodily harm.  I think I've come a long way.

:)

Jason Moy

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Jason Moy » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 02:56:01



Don't forget Thief 3, assuming it's still being made.  GPL 76 or a
Papy rally sim would possibly be the only things I'd look forward to
more than T3 and DE2.. =)

Jason

Nick

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Nick » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 03:17:24

Taken from www.planetdeusex.com/dx2/

The Technology of Deus Ex 2

On June 20th, 2001, Eidos and ION announced that Deus Ex 2 would be
developed using the next-generation Unreal Engine technology. This engine,
in development by Epic Games (creators of Unreal and Unreal Tournament), is
constantly evolving as the programmers at Epic add functionality. At the
time of this writing it contains code from many different sources, including
HumanHead's RUNE, Unreal Tournament for the PC and the PS2, Unreal Warfare,
and Unreal 2.

A fair bit of information has been released, and while none of it is
directly tied to Deus Ex 2 it demonstrates how powerful the technology is.
By taking a look at some of the features, we can at the very least get a
feel for the kind of things that the Deus Ex 2 team MIGHT put into the game.
Additionally, be sure to take a look at the images Epic has on the Unreal
Engine News site. While these are not images from Deus Ex 2, they still show
the potential for killer graphics.
  a.. Increased World Size to +/- 131072 for each of X, Y and Z.
  b.. Static meshes can be converted back into a brush
  c.. Static mesh vertices are raytraced at build time. Hardware lighting
used for dynamic lights
  d.. static meshes can have per-polygon collision
  e.. Hardware brushes - allows scenes of 150-200 times more polygons than
what users saw in Unreal Tournament at excellent levels of performance using
hardware T&L
  f.. Terrain, including detail textures and 16-bit resolution heightmaps
  g.. Skeletal animation, including tools and even skeletons including 85
bones just in the face, specifically for facial animation.
  h.. import textured geometry from 3D Studio Max saved in the ASE format
  i.. Distance fog
  j.. Specular Highlights
  k.. complex objects can now appear many times in a level, but only appear
once in memory
  l.. Volumes, which allow for true moving water, arbitrarily shaped
triggers, and localized physics.
  m.. new particle system with dynamic influences and collision (you can now
shoot a projectile through smoke and have the smoke smoothly and
realistically dissipate)
  n.. texture sizes of 2048x2048
  o.. a new cinematic tool, entitled Matinee
  p.. autoaiming code with new features like a 180 degree turn button and
turn to nearest enemy button for novice users (taken from the PS2 version of
Unreal Tournament)
  q.. DX8 manages texture memory
  r.. improved contrast, allowing end users to set brightness, contrast and
gamma within the runtime
  s.. improved tools for AI pathing and additional AI improvements
including: ladder support, true crouching, improved AI sight & hearing,
increased AI performance, improved navigation
  t.. restructured game/actor class hierarchy
  u.. Multiple editor enhancements including: new texture alignment tools
(cylindrical and spherical mapping options, w00), 2D shaper enhancements,
the ability to use your mouse to raise and lower the height of selected
terrain areas, and a polygon mode that allows brushes to be created by
defining a shape and then performing an extrusion on it
And now, some DX2 specifics.

AI

The Artificial Intelligence for the game is being strengthened greatly by AI
Programmer Paul Tozour, who is working with other AI-experienced Ion people,
like Doug Church to put together an overarching AI system that works for DX2
and Thief 3. Missing portions like noticing dead bodies, and search patterns
(as opposed to automatically knowing where the player is) have been added.
At the root of this is an alert level system similar to Thief's, but with
more distinction between evidences. Couple this with over 30,000 AI "barks"
(lines of dialogue), and you have an extremely convincing illusion of
intelligence.

Various other enhancements are planned, such as "social contexts" (different
reactions in a crowded public lobby and in a restricted area), and a morale
setting (kill 19 of 20 guys, and the last one will probably not stand up to
you.)

Eyecandy

"DX2 will feature a much higher poly count for architecture and models than
players saw in the first Deus Ex game. Plus, the models are fully boned and
are being animated with a skeletal IK system, allowing for more animations
and higher quality (motion captured) animations. The effects are really
satisfying and reach into many areas of the game, improving it in both
high-impact and subtle ways. For instance, we always wanted characters to
have facial expressions, but could not afford it until now; we believe this
feature alone will seriously improve the quality of the game's conversations
and character interactions." (comment by Harvey Smith in Deus Ex 2 Update)

Weather FX have been mentioned as well, although nothing is known.

Physics

Havok's real-time physics engine has been licensed by ION, allowing an
extremely high level of interactivity with objects. Every different type of
object will be assigned a mass (and even a heat level for infrared sensors),
and bodies are "rag-dolled" upon death, so corpses will flip-flop all over
the place, tumble squidlike down stairs or fall and hang limply over
railings--interactivity possibilities unending. Virtually any object can be
used as a weapon or a distraction, with the intent of allowing the player to
find his/her own solution to a given problem.

Lighting and Sound

A custom in-house lighting engine is also being developed by ISA. This
lighting lends itself to various types of stealth gameplay (spotting a guard
around a corner by his shadow, for example). Coupled with the physics
engine, even more opportunities are available: knock over a few barrels near
a lightsource, and you have yourself a nice shadowy place to hide. "No
single shadow in our world is static," says Harvey Smith.

Just make sure the noise of the falling barrels doesn't alert the guards: a
custom sound propogation engine is being developed as well, similar to
Thief's. This sound engine will allow for more realistic sound propogation,
such as muffling the sound of your actions when you shut a door.

-----

Deus Ex 2: Project Update 11/13/01

Deus Ex 2--Project Update Intro
DX2 is now well underway. We've been quiet for a while, but now we'd like to
provide you with a project status update and we'd like to make a statement
or two regarding the nature of the game and the development team.

Project Status
We've been working on parts of the DX2 design doc--an html site on our local
network--since the end of DX1. It links to a bunch of diverse sections on
aspects of the game ranging from unit ecology, interface, fiction, concept
art, et al. Meanwhile, every discipline on the team is grinding away. We
have some really interesting game units planned...including plot-relevant
characters, military troops from the various factions from our high-tech
future, an array of bot classes and a selection of synthetically-engineered
creatures. We want to provide the player with some intriguing new gameplay
tools, as well as some that will be familiar to DX1 players. On top of that,
of course, we're trying to continue the story set up by the extrapolated
conspiracy-theory future of the first game.

Until recently, the materials we've produced (maps, artwork and engine
features) were either still in developmental stages or they were working
fairly well alone and had not yet been completely integrated. We've been
running around in the maps, experimenting with different interface
configurations. Just today, we met an integration milestone, pulling a bunch
of these elements together for the first time. Having finally crept out of
the dark ages of early concept work, project setup, design planning and team
building, we're nearing an end-of-year critical milestone in which all of
our core tech is in place in (at least) a rudimentary stage. Next year
should be all about implementing our plans for specific game areas and
situations: building out missions, writing more dialogue, tuning weapons and
tools, establishing enemy behaviors and such.

The Game
Deus Ex is a hybrid RPG/Adventure/Action game that allows the player to
solve all problems in multiple ways. DX2 will adhere to these same ideals,
with some significant enhancements based on our much stronger understanding
of what made the first game work.

From an RPG character standpoint, we've planned more character-building
choices (the player-character can be optionally male or female), we've
unified some of the game systems and added some interesting player-character
capabilities. We feel like we now have a much clearer idea about which
aspects of DX1 were important to players, what worked well and what didn't.
The game environment itself in DX2 is something that has us completely
excited. Our plans include a higher-fidelity world, with weather, greater
object density, more capable (and clearer) unit behaviors and a deeper
physics/object-interaction simulation.

Fictionally speaking, DX2 is set on Earth in a post-DX1 future. We're
updating some of the familiar organizations and characters, while adding
some completely new 'players' as well.

While DX2 will be the same type of game as the original Deus Ex (an
immersive sim), this time around we have some significant technological
advantages. Our studio is working on both Thief 3 and DX2. While those
projects are different in setting, vibe, gameplay focus and in other ways,
they also have a lot in common. So we're attempting to co-author as much
technology as possible. Both projects will (at least in part) share
technologies and resources related to AI, lighting, sound propagation,
editing tools, motion capture, physics and others. In all of these areas,
both teams are also tweaking things for the different needs of each
game--that way Thief 3 and DX2 will ultimately each have a unique feel.

DX2 will feature a much higher poly count for architecture and models than
players saw in the first Deus Ex game. Plus, the models are fully boned and
are being animated with a skeletal IK system, allowing for more ...

read more »

ymenar

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by ymenar » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:42:03


> - Sparse options

Compared to Nascar Heat? LMAO.  Anyway, Nascar Racing 4 will be soon two
generations old.

<snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants>

Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research realism.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Nick

NASCAR 2003 going to be better than NASCAR 4?

by Nick » Mon, 09 Dec 2002 04:54:28



> > - Sparse options

> Compared to Nascar Heat? LMAO.  Anyway, Nascar Racing 4 will be soon two
> generations old.

> <snip a bunch of arcade-type options he wants>

> Stay with Nascar Thunder, it's made for people who don't research realism.

Yeah, not 'Made By Gamers, For Gamers', but 'Made By People Who Don't
Research Realism, For People Who Don't Research Realism'.

Kinda catchy, don't ya think?


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