rec.autos.simulators

by **Neil Rain** » Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:11:37

That happens to me sometimes as well, but it usually results in a "tank
slapper", where I'm struggling to prevent the car from oscillating back and
forth. Parabolica is the classic
"power-on-oversteer-spin-into-the-inside-barrier" corner, as the rear tyres
are right on the limit - I often have to lift a bit here to prevent the
spin, but I think ideally it's better not to have to do that.

For me the most interesting corner is Lesmo 2 - I think the idea is to
trail-brake into the corner to get it to turn in towards the apex, then
accelerate through the corner so it drifts a little wider and just misses
the apex.

I still haven't broken into 1:27 territory though - I think I must be
missing something!

> Here's how I imagine it works. You're understeering off a corner. You give
> it a quick blip of throttle which breaks the rear loose and starts a
slide.
> Then you lighten off the throttle until the car straightens out, but now
the
> car is facing more towards the exit. So you punch it and rocket out of the
> corner.

> Of course you're still braking too, lots of footwork going on.

> I've only managed to do this well a couple of times, but one time it
> resulted in a 1:28.57 when I got it just right in Parabolica :)

> > To use the throttle when you're on the verge of control trying to slow
> down
> > seems counter-intuitive... I've accidentally had my foot a little on
the
> gas
> > in a turn, and understeered right off the track. I can't imagine doing
it
> on
> > PURPOSE...<g>

by **Ville V Sinkk** » Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:49:31

>> I'm using an MS wheel. I get around 30fps, playable..
> GPL cars are uncontrollable at anything under a solid 36 fps. No wonder you
> find the learning curve a bit steep. Get rid of some graphics that just look
> nice but won't help your driving, like arms and wheel, special effects,
> beveled tyres etc. or go to a lower resolution if that gets you 36 fps. Then
> try again, it will be a different car.

Nonsense. Don't blame the hardware for your own slowness - 15 fps is
perfectly adequate for smooth, consistent driving.

+Cinquo

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:58:22

You're joking, right?

Andre

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:30:09

Not with GPL. The framerate is locked in with the execution of the
program. Every frame you drop, you are also loosing inputs and feedback.
I'm sure there are folks who can overcome that, but if you are running
15fps,
then you are needlessly handicapping yourself. And don't even think about
bringing that low a frame rate to the online world. You will be impacting
all the other racers as well.
dave henrie

by **Richard Bellavan** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:09:17

<g> It does seem counter-intuitive, I agree ! But it works for me,
I swear ! Like I said, I use 60/60+1 on the differential, and that
behaviour might be very specific to an (relatively) unlocked diff.

Oh yeah, when I understeer off the track in a turn, it's usually
because I'm braking too hard and locking the front wheels. (BTW,
you'll have a hard time noticing when this happens without FF :-)
Have you tried setting your brake balance a little more to the rear
? Say, 1 or 2% less than what you're used to ? I use 53% for most
cars (Ferrari, Eagle, Coventry), and 51 or 52% for the more rear-heavy
Murasama and BRM.

Richard.
--
Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc.
Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16
Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16
Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

by **Maxx** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 03:30:21

>>To use the throttle when you're on the verge of control trying to slow down
>>seems counter-intuitive... I've accidentally had my foot a little on the gas
>>in a turn, and understeered right off the track. I can't imagine doing it on
>>PURPOSE...<g>

><g> It does seem counter-intuitive, I agree ! But it works for me

[snip]

Your not using the throttle to slow down, you use the pedal
immediately to the left to do that.

What you are doing by applying a little throttle under braking
and turn-in is :

1) Under Braking to keep some of the weight on the rear
of the car so the rear tires have more traction (braking
power) - this is good as they are wider tires, with potentially
more grip.

This needs to be done in conjunction with moving the
brake balance further back (say 54% is a reasonable
figure).

It's not a GPL quirk, we do it in real-life, as well slightly
improving braking it also keep the rear in line, heavy
braking makes rear very light, any imbalance may cause
fishtailing. I think GPL MAY be slightly flawed in this
respect (but it's just a hunch, like the rest of us here, I've
never driven a 67 race car at speed etc. etc.)

SEE MY OTHER POST AGAINST THREAD :
Re: Thats it... GPL has just ***ed the hell out of me!!!
FOR MORE DETAIL.

2) During turn-in : we do this again to move some weight
to the rear to give more rear-traction to stop it sliding
out (oversteer). You should be sliding anyway, if your not
you are going way too slow.

You can run through a (fastish 70mph+) corner quicker
with some gas than without. It's all about balancing the weight
of the car, maintaining rough;y the same level of grip at front
and rear. Too much front bias = oversteer, too much rear
= (usually understeer . although it's a bit more involved that
than)

Also, as said previously, you have to be sliding and getting
some degree of tire-squeal to go fast through corners.
A tires grip increases as it initially starts to slip (squeal)
it gets better to a point, then gets worse. At a guess (in GPL)
It's best grip is when it is squealing say at 30%-50% volume.
Thats just a guess, no science or insight.

Again this is not GPL Voodoo, it's real-life and GPL models
it very well.

Maxx

by **Eldre** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:29:16

> use the Wayback machine to travel back...back to 1967....
>the time....1967...
>the place Marenello(sp?)
>Mr. Ferrari's office.

You have WAY too much time on your hands, Dave...<g>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:29:16

>>To use the throttle when you're on the verge of control trying to slow down
>>seems counter-intuitive... I've accidentally had my foot a little on the
>gas
>>in a turn, and understeered right off the track. I can't imagine doing it
>on
>>PURPOSE...<g>

><g> It does seem counter-intuitive, I agree ! But it works for me,
>I swear ! Like I said, I use 60/60+1 on the differential, and that
>behaviour might be very specific to an (relatively) unlocked diff.

>Oh yeah, when I understeer off the track in a turn, it's usually
>because I'm braking too hard and locking the front wheels. (BTW,
>you'll have a hard time noticing when this happens without FF :-)
>Have you tried setting your brake balance a little more to the rear
>? Say, 1 or 2% less than what you're used to ? I use 53% for most
>cars (Ferrari, Eagle, Coventry), and 51 or 52% for the more rear-heavy
>Murasama and BRM.

I know so little about setups it's pathetic - I've given up. I seldom change
anything on the setups I download. The only thing I could say is I have to
increase the steering ratio on most of them. If they're at 15:1, I usually up
it to 18:1. Otherwise, the car 'oscillates' in the straights. The other thing
is that when I tried setups from Greger Huttu and Graeme Nash(to a lesser
extent, Nunnini), I spin VERY easily under braking. It's an exercise in
frustration. Does that give any insight into what I'm running into?

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Leo Landma** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 08:52:45

I'm sure your driving can be improved but it's little use asking for driving
tips when you don't get 36 fps ALL THE TIME. Even the best GPL hotshoes
couldn't drive with your frame rates. So fix that first, then come back for
more answers.

Bye,
Leo

by **J. Todd Wass** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:00:56

Hmmm.... I recall getting a 1:32:xx or so at Monza on a Pentium 60, running
between 2 and 3 fps... Of course, it was running at about 50% of real time,
but still!
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

by **J. Todd Wass** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:01:42

I agree :-)
Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

by **Simon Brow** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:25:14

Playing at 15 fps will have a detrimental effect on even the best drivers,
particularly when it comes to negotiating race starts and tight overtaking
maneouvers. It will also adversely effect the ability to catch and avoid
spins. If it takes 3 times as long to see the results of your control
inputs, that can't ever be a good thing.

And for the sake of realism the frame rate should always be as high as
possible

by **Eldre** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:17:27

>>>To use the throttle when you're on the verge of control trying to slow down
>>>seems counter-intuitive... I've accidentally had my foot a little on the
>gas
>>>in a turn, and understeered right off the track. I can't imagine doing it
>on
>>>PURPOSE...<g>

>><g> It does seem counter-intuitive, I agree ! But it works for me
>[snip]

>Your not using the throttle to slow down, you use the pedal
>immediately to the left to do that.

Of course, Malcom - I know that. I'm just saying that staying on the
accellerator while trying to slow down, even slightly, goes against every
logical thought. I've done it before, and didn't realize it. I always ended
up wondering "Why the <expletive> did I run off the track?!? I hit the brakes
at the right time". I only recently caught myself doing it, and it explains
why I entered the turn too fast even though I hit the brakes at the same place
as the previous lap. The added throttle pushed me right off the track...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.80...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Ville V Sinkk** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:12:59

> Playing at 15 fps will have a detrimental effect on even the best drivers,
> particularly when it comes to negotiating race starts and tight overtaking
> maneouvers. It will also adversely effect the ability to catch and avoid
> spins. If it takes 3 times as long to see the results of your control
> inputs, that can't ever be a good thing.
> And for the sake of realism the frame rate should always be as high as
> possible

It's not like I'm _deliberately_ keeping my frame rate at 7 fps, you
know. At <36 fps you may not be reaching -50 handicap any time soon, but
you _can_ still be fast and competitive.

+Cinquo [GPLRank 36.15]

by **Richard Bellavan** » Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:47:01

Same here. I use 18:1 or 17:1 everywhere.

Spins under braking usually come from two things (maybe one of them,
maybe both):

1. Brake balance set to far back (try moving it forward)
2. Lifting off the gas too abruptly with a high (60+) coast
side differential ramp-angle (try to discipline your
right foot :-)

For reference, here's Richard's Magical Alien Setup Adaptation Formula (TM):

- Set the spring rates to match the chassis weight distribution
- Raise the ride height to around 3.5" front and rear
- Drop bump ***s to 1.00"
- Lower rear rebound to 3 if necessary (4 and above make weight
transfer to the front too quick for my tastes).
- Stiffen roll bars to around 160 front / 140 rear
- Set differential to 60/60+1
- Adjust steering ratio to 18:1
- Set brake balance to:
53% for Ferrari, Eagle, Lotus, Cooper
52% for Honda and BRM
54% for Brabham

Run a few (4-5) laps, then go back to car setup

- Adjust cold tire pressures so "hot" pressures are 25 psi
- Fine-tune cambers to even tire temps as much as possible
- If car was oversteering too much, soften rear anti-roll
- If cas was understeering too much, stiffen read anti-roll

Repeat as necessary.

(Yes, I'm aware that this means I mostly use only the gearing from
the downloaded setup :-)

Richard.
--
Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc.
Phone: (450) 449-5261 #16
Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16
Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 449-5242

rec.autos.simulators

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GPL, huge learning curve?

GPL, huge learning curve?

GPL, huge learning curve?

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GPL, huge learning curve?

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