rec.autos.simulators

Is the rumor true Papy stopped selling the Indy Track Pack for ICR1 and if so
would it be ILLEGAL for anyone to post it on there webpage???  Sure would like
to let others race where I already do.

Bill

 >
 > Is the rumor true Papy stopped selling the Indy Track Pack for ICR1
and if so
 > would it be ILLEGAL for anyone to post it on there webpage???  Sure
would like
 > to let others race where I already do.
 >
 > Bill

Yes Bill there is not going to be any IMS track packs under the
christmas tree from Pappy.  The issue of whether it is ILLEGAL or not
needs to be answered by some of our leagal brothers.  But it is my
understanding that the company must be offering the software for sale
and your act deprives the company of revenue.

Copyright law has NOTHING to do with revenue. The holder of the copyright
has the right to control use of their work, be it for profit or not.
Period.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

 >The issue of whether it is ILLEGAL or not
 >needs to be answered by some of our legal brothers.  But it is my
 >understanding that the company must be offering the software for sale
 >and your act deprives the company of revenue.

 NO! NO! NO!

 Copyright law has NOTHING to do with revenue. The holder of the copyright
 has the right to control use of their work, be it for profit or not.
 Period.

 Rick Genter
 Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
 Sierra On-Line, Inc.

        Don't disagree with you but to prosocute you have to show loss or damage to
either name or business period.  The courts are not taking cases where an out of
production software vendor is trying to protect the copyright.  Try talking to bill gates
on ms-dos copyright infringement.  He could sue a company that was duplicating MS-DOS 5.0
software and installing it on hardware but! he could not sue a guy copying the software
for a second system.  The court would not take the case.

        Also understand that what we are talking about is a software package that your
company cannot produce any longer.  The people that your company would have to sue are
the users that would pay for the software if you would sell it to them.  This would look
great in the press.  

        So, in closing if you as a representivitive of Sierra on-line, INC. are telling
me a customer of your software will sue me if I copy the software then do so. There is a
big difference between what the law provides and what happens in the real world.  I will
pay almost any reasonable price for the IMS track pack from Sierra on-line, INC. or
anyone else.  jep.

For the uninitiated:

For your information, the ORIGINAL copyright to Indianapolis Motor
Speedway was, is, and will be held by the Indianapolis Motor Speedway
Corporation (President -- Tony George).  CART uses that copyright on
an exclusive licensing basis -- however, they do not "own" it.
Neither did Papyrus; they licensed it too.

As I understand SOFTWARE copyright law (which is still not very clear
thanks to Washington), although a LICENSE may expire or be
transferred, the COPYRIGHT, held by IMS, does not expire unless IMS
fails to renew the copyright at specified intervals (for music
copyrights last for about 50 years).  So, in effect, doing ANYTHING
with Indianapolis' brand name, likeness, or anything else to do with
the track MUST be cleared through Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

And, given Tony George's track record with copyrights (see his lawsuit
against CART for the use of the IndyCar name) I don't know if I'd want
to be ripping him off. ;-)

shooting through ***space:

Jim --

Unfortunately, you (and most other people who want to pirate Indy...
yes, pirate.  Let's be honest) are proceeding from the assumption that
Papyrus OWNS the copyright to Indianapolis.  Don't you think that if
Papyrus owns the copyright to Indy that they would be the first ones
to make a new version of the track?

None of you get it.  If Papyrus held the actual copyrights to the
tracks (Indy, Daytona, Suzuka, whatever) they would be pumping those
suckers out like mad.  Unfortunately, they don't.  The TRACKS have the
copyright and LICENSE their images, brands, etc. out to distributors.

The reason Daytona can't be made is that Sega got an EXCLUSIVE license
to use the track name, image, etc.  That means that during the period
specified during the license terms, they are the only ones LEGALLY
authorized to use the track image, name, brands, etc. in computer
*** software.  Once that license expires, then Papyrus will be back
in the hunt to acquire licensing rights.  Until then, Papyrus and
Sierra are SOL.

Personally, I think it's pretty lame, all this copyright business, but
I think it's even lamer that A) you guys are so hot to pirate the
track and B) that you're POSTING your intentions to a public
newsgroup.  Not bright, man.

On Wed, 22 May 1996 13:13:35 -0500, Jim PArkhurst

--

IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Tony;

        I don't have any misconceptions about copyright violations, patent infringements, or ownership issues
of the media icons for IMS or IMS track pack.  "Let's be honest" please, to "priate" a software package is to
deprive the developer of the rewards for their work.  I have not nor wil I do so.  If on the other hand the
developer has lost the right to manufacture the software, I have no problem buying from an other source, or
coping the software from a friend. If IMS management demanded that I paid them for the right to use the
software I would.

        The fact that I state them clearlly in the open demonstrates by action my desire to reward the develper
for the work in question. I will state further that to take action against an individual for a $20.00 out of
production software package is foolish from a company perspective.  The pirate cases in the past have been
against companies that steal the work from another and reap the profits.  There has not been one case to my
knoweldge involving a single end-user coping a single out of production software package. To further cloud the
issue is the fact that to use the package one must modify the s/w with a third free ware package to allow the
s/w to function in the new enviroment.  

        So, to state again I will get the software from anyone who will sell or give me it to me.  If Papyrus
or Serria or IMS or Sega want to make this a legal endevor so be it.  I will have a field day in the press.  I
have had dealings with this subject in my 20 plus years in the business and have had the best***me over.  
This is one issue that I would not back away from.  There are several issues that would make intreasting legal
fodder for a good law firm.  Mine is one of the best in in San Jose, CA.

        I'm not out to steal from anyone.  I just want to run on Indy like so many others.  The problems with
the licensing is unfortuneit but I will strive to get IMS into a form for my PURCHASED COPIES OF NASCAR AND
ICR2.  If we were to take this copyright problem to it's limits then all of the owners of all of the teams
would require signed releases or payment everytime we run one of their cars on the program. But as I have said
over and over I would pay for the software from anyone.  

 >
 > Jim --
 >
 > Unfortunately, you (and most other people who want to pirate Indy...
 > yes, pirate.  Let's be honest) are proceeding from the assumption that
 > Papyrus OWNS the copyright to Indianapolis.  Don't you think that if
 > Papyrus owns the copyright to Indy that they would be the first ones
 > to make a new version of the track?
 >
 > None of you get it.  If Papyrus held the actual copyrights to the
 > tracks (Indy, Daytona, Suzuka, whatever) they would be pumping those
 > suckers out like mad.  Unfortunately, they don't.  The TRACKS have the
 > copyright and LICENSE their images, brands, etc. out to distributors.
 >
 > The reason Daytona can't be made is that Sega got an EXCLUSIVE license
 > to use the track name, image, etc.  That means that during the period
 > specified during the license terms, they are the only ones LEGALLY
 > authorized to use the track image, name, brands, etc. in computer
 > *** software.  Once that license expires, then Papyrus will be back
 > in the hunt to acquire licensing rights.  Until then, Papyrus and
 > Sierra are SOL.
 >
 > Personally, I think it's pretty lame, all this copyright business, but
 > I think it's even lamer that A) you guys are so hot to pirate the
 > track and B) that you're POSTING your intentions to a public
 > newsgroup.  Not bright, man.
 >
 > On Wed, 22 May 1996 13:13:35 -0500, Jim PArkhurst

 >
 > >       Don't disagree with you but to prosocute you have to show loss or damage to
 > >either name or business period.  The courts are not taking cases where an out of
 > >production software vendor is trying to protect the copyright.  Try talking to bill gates
 > >on ms-dos copyright infringement.  He could sue a company that was duplicating MS-DOS 5.0
 > >software and installing it on hardware but! he could not sue a guy copying the software
 > >for a second system.  The court would not take the case.
 > >
 > >       Also understand that what we are talking about is a software package that your
 > >company cannot produce any longer.  The people that your company would have to sue are
 > >the users that would pay for the software if you would sell it to them.  This would look
 > >great in the press.
 > >
 > >       So, in closing if you as a representivitive of Sierra on-line, INC. are telling
 > >me a customer of your software will sue me if I copy the software then do so. There is a
 > >big difference between what the law provides and what happens in the real world.  I will
 > >pay almost any reasonable price for the IMS track pack from Sierra on-line, INC. or
 > >anyone else.  jep.
 >
 > --

 > IWCCCARS Project Coordinator
 > Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor
 > Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

You are correct that is unlikely that IMS or Papyrus will go after an
individual for making a single copy, it doesn't make financial sense and it
probably won't win them any brownie points. But I'd say chances are pretty
good they will be very aggressive if someone posts it to a newsgroup or
puts it up on an FTP site. Witness what just happened with Jed and the
Daytona track.

Dave "davids" Sparks
Sequoia Motorsports

: >The issue of whether it is ILLEGAL or not
: >needs to be answered by some of our leagal brothers.  But it is my
: >understanding that the company must be offering the software for sale
: >and your act deprives the company of revenue.

: NO! NO! NO!

: Copyright law has NOTHING to do with revenue. The holder of the copyright
: has the right to control use of their work, be it for profit or not.
: Period.

: Rick Genter
: Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
: Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Rick,

For God's sake, DO ANOTHER RUN of IMS!!!!

The ICRII conversion utility has created a sizeable demand for the IMS
add-on. You have NO costs (other than duplication and packaging) and would
encourage further sales of ICRII. By not producing any more copies you
are simply encouraging piracy of the IMS pack.

KaBoNG!

Sorry Rick, I'd side with you usually, but he has a definite point.....

I can pass on the sentiment, but I have no control in the decision. Sorry.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

________

Eldred Pickett

I am NOT paranoid.  And why are you always watching me?!?

When I tried to post the converted IMS file on my home page,
Papyrus contacted the owner of the server and tried to get me
kicked off. Nice bunch of guys. My attorney feels their claim
to the 'converted' file is of doubtful value as long as no
copyrighted names are used. Wish I had the money to challenge
their claim.

Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA