rec.autos.simulators

Hi folks,

Well, I'm thinking about making the plunge on an FF wheel.  I know this
has been gone over so many times before, but I'd like to see if I can
get some vital (for me) information in one place.  So I have four
questions:

Between the Microsoft FF and the Logitech FF, which is the best ? (I
know, a subjective question)

More specifically, which hits the framerate the least? (my system: 500
celeron, 96 mb, SBLive!, Voodoo 3-2000, DX6.1)

Are the Logitech's pedals a *major* problem, or a minor one that soon
goes away?

Do either have big problems with the SBLive, the Voodoo 3, or with DX
6.1?

Thanks for reading, and even more thanks for responding.

David K.

PS  Please post replies to the newsgroup only, as I do not read my deja
acct. mail

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

I bought both wheels to compare and returned the one I didn't like.  I kept
the LWFF and returned the MSFF.  The Logitech wheel is much
smoother/precise, has superior paddles for shifting, has a nicer soft ***
feel, and just looks and feels like a better made product.  While the pedals
for the LWFF are not great to use in GPL because of the precise
throttle/braking needed I use my TSW2 pedals (springs in LWFF are too weak).
I do, however, use the LWFF pedals for every other game since nothing else
is as demanding as GPL.

I forget the exact stats but someone from Papy actually posted CPU
utilization of FF wheels and the LWFF was the best of the bunch.  In games
with a frame rate counter I can attest that I see no performance loss using
the LWFF (I use it USB).  It's the best wheel I've used for the money.  Keep
in mind I also own a $200+ TSW2 so I'm comparing it to a real wheel and not
a toy.

--
Joe Marques

After reading an older post by Joe comparing these two wheels, yesterday I
went out a bought a LWFF (newer model with stiffer pedal springs and
includes SCGT).

After having used my MSFF for quite a while now (I bought it just after it
came out), I have absolutely no regrets about spending another $250 CDN on a
LWFF (the MSFF will go to my nephew as an previously-enjoyed XMas gift ;^)

Win98, PII 450, Voodoo3 3000, 256MB, Turtle Beach Montego II (Vortex 2),
DX7, latest drivers

Biggest benefits over MSFF:
- Using USB, major framerate increase:  about 4 fps on average at the
startline in GPL, SCGT is now playable with FF enabled (no noticable fps
decrease), about 3 fps in N3/NL
- Much more solid feel and better FF effect - using latest driver 3.30, the
FF effect is much better in my mind and as strong as the MSFF.
- Faster downshifting - paddles shifters let me downshift much faster (by
tapping paddle) than the buttons on MSFF

Downside:
- pedals:  I find the springs (in this latest model) adequate and I could
live with the limited amount of travel, but the worst part is the angle
(rotation axis) of the brake pedal.  Very uncomfortable.
- not as smooth as I expected it to be - while the MSFF has a gear-induced,
gritty feel, the notchiness is relatively easily overcome and it's
consistent.  With my LWFF, it feels sort of like a bicycle that has indents
in the headset bearing races (if you know what I mean!) - smooth, but with
notches every 5-10 degrees of rotation.  I'm not sure if I have a defective
wheel, but I went back to the store and tried another LWFF out of the box
and it had the same feel.  As a result, non-FF sims are not as enjoyable
with the LWFF (i.e., CART and GP2).

Overall, after driving a few hours, compared to the MSFF, games feel better
with the LWFF (to varying degrees) even with the pedals.
Much better - Viper, GPL, SCGT, DTR demo
Better - TOCA2, MGPRS2
Somewhat better - N3, NL
Worse - non-FF, GP2, CART, SODA

Brian

Bee sure you pick one with usb, to avoid "drifting"...
It`s a prob with pci soundcards and their gameports...
Somtimes the controls get outta wack , and steers a little left, or gives a
little gas...dont want that- do you ( i have it ;-(
http://www.thrustmaster.com/support/pci.htm

Rolf

Just a note, I don't think you're referring to the LWFF since it's only USB
or Serial so it won't use a gameport.

--
Joe Marques

Mine is a thrustmaster formula sprint, but i was tinking of the Microsoft
Sidewinder FF...Dont think it has usb, but maybe its seriell ?

Rolf

Greeting.

 I partly agree you. I shifted from one years old MSFFW to tuned version of
LWFF. It's brasting. LWFFs handling has much natural feeling, and its force
feedback is more sim aimed, I think too.
 Pedals comes with newer turned version of LWFF seems well improved, springs
are strong well. so good enough to control GPL. I can control cars from
wheel rocks as I want.

 I recommend to get newer turned version of LWFF. It comes with "SCGT".

 Yes, Yes, YES! LWFF frees up CPU and more fps for critical situation, like
starting populated race and, I really impressed is, TURN IN!
 When turning in corners, there are dramatic force feedback transitions, and
with MSFFW, fps drops in an instant. But, with LWFF, there are no instant
fps drop and I can control more easily.

 Thanks posters who recommend the conversion from MSFFW to LWFF. =)

Y.Minami

The sidewinder wheel uses the gameport with midi signals.

And how about the RS wheel? Is that any good?

// Johan

Many thanks to those who have responded to my initial request.  Your
comments have all been extremely helpful, and what is more, also nearly
uniform.

David K.

Hi David,
I can only speak of the MSFF as I haven't tried the LWFF. I also have a
SBLive (Player 1024) and the MSFF works perfectly with it. With regard to
framerate although there have been a number of posts referring to problems
with the MSFF I have to say that I have not really noticed any problem at
all, except in DTR which I found undriveable with 10 ai cars and FF enabled,
and that is on my P233MMX, 64mb RAM, Maxi Gamer Phoenix 16mb Voodoo Banshee
system so I wouldn't have thought you would notice anything on your much
more powerful setup.

The unit has an excellent clamping device which is rock solid on my desk and
the pedal base is the first one I have had which hasn't required some way of
securing it to stop it from sliding away. It seem's to give a really good
angle top the pedals which keeps it securely in place. The pedals are maybe
a little on the soft side (at least compared to what I have been used to
with my modified Thrustmaster Nascar F1 setup) but they are still ok and
look quite easy to stiffen up (check the "MSFF Brakes.. *** Ball Trick"
thread from earlier for some ideas).

I have found the FF effects to be superb in the all the sims I have tried so
far (GPL, N3, NL, DTR) except for SCGT which has very little FF except in
the offtrack excursions. Feeling the wheel fighting hard as you go around
the first right-hander at Monza (sorry. not too good on remembering corner
names, Curve Grande I think) was a real thrill and the ability to now feel
the wheels losing grip is such a big help that I really can't envisage going
back to using a non-ff wheel unless forced to due to breakage, etc. I
suppose that has always been my main worry with these new wheels, are they
as sturdy as the non-ff setups... I have been very impressed with the build
quality of the MSFF but not having yet opened it up I am not sure how easy
it would be to repair if anything did go wrong with it. The wheel mounting
seems very solid but I have only had it for a few weeks so whether it will
get lose over time I really don't know, maybe someone who has had their one
longer can comment on this.

I already had DX7 installed when I got my wheel so I can't comment on how it
is under DX6.1 but I wouldn't envisage any problems with it.

All in all I can fully recommend the MSFF wheel but apart from the pedals
the LWFF unit also gets very good reviews here.

Hope this is of some help.

Peter Hooper

How does the Logitech work using the serial port? Also several stores in the
UK say the wheel is currently unavailable, one of whom stated this was due
to some "production difficulties" while gameplay.com state that the wheel is
USB only.

Stuart

Hello David,
Have you considered the ACT LABS Force RS?  We have a new shifter out
that just rocks.  I may be biased, but I was a customer of ACT LABS
before an employee.  
I tried all three wheel before purchasing.  The ACT LABS RS simply has
the best pedal unit.  All the others just moved around on me too much.
Ours has a heavy metal base.  
I am a framerate counter and I have to say that our USB wheel does not
have any measureable impact of framerates.

I just picked up a LWFF and it does both USB and serial.  I haven't used the
serial port for it, but it came with instructions on how to set it up, and
the cord has a serial connection.  There's actually a serial to USB
connector on the end of my cord, so it was designed with serial use in mind.
Its not USB only.

I love it, btw.  Sure, the pedals aren't as nice as the CH pedals I was
using, but my times have already gone down so it hasn't been that big of a
handicap.

Hope this helps.  :-)