rec.autos.simulators

Please people, read this carefully if you want to help.

First let me explain what my real problem is:

When I set my steering wheel to fully linear, I'm having troubles
keeping the car on a straight line when I'm at full speed.  I really
like the responsiveness of the steering when I'm in curves, so I wish
to keep my settings to fully linear on those occasions.  Unfortunately
this is not possible because of the behavior on straights, cause when
you're braking at the end of a straight you want your car to be as
stable as possible or else you'll find yourself upside down in no
time.  I believe most people understand my problem at this point.

So to all people that want me to move the "linear/non-linear" either
way I would like to say this:  There is nothing wrong with linear
steering.  I like linear steering.  I've tried many other positions
and linear fits me the best.  What I'm saying is speed should affect
the ease with wich you're steering the car.  The faster you go, the
heavier the steering wheel becomes.  I really don't think that's
unrealistic.

Now to the people who say "You may have low FPS" I say no.  My system
performs very well with GPL, I'd estimate my frame rate to be about
25-30 FPS, reminds me of rendition ICR2.  Anyway the problem remains
even if I remove every graphic detail, so there's not point.

To those who argue that the cars really behave that way I'd like to
explain how I don't think it does.  Have you ever noticed, when you're
at speed on a highway, that the car shows resistance when you try to
steer from one side to the other (you can feel it even more if you
don't have power-steering)?  The inertia of the car will create forces
that fight any change in its speed vector.  So if you'd apply a small
correction on the wheel the car wouldn't be as responsive as when
you're running say 30 mph, because of the relationship between inertia
and speed.  Can you feel this in GPL?  I'd say we can feel it but to a
much lesser extent.  When you're in a real car you can visualize it by
the way the car behaves and you can also feel the Gs while changing
direction.  I don't think the guys at Papy missed completely on that
issue.  Now some of you will argue that Papy models it perfectly, but
I don't think that's the case, the effect seems to faint IMHO.  At
full speed on straights any small correction to the steering wheel
causes a change in direction that has too much magnitude in my
opinion.  Even if they have done it right don't you agree that the
physical part would still be missing?  The program HAS to compensate
for that.  That's of course if you agree that a simulation shouldn't
only try to recreate visual effects.

For those who are dying to tell me that such an option would make the
game arcadish, well let me put it simply:  I don't really care, and
I'm sure Sierra doesn't either.  What's important is that as many
people as possible have the opportunity to enjoy the game.  Maybe to
some "elite" here realism might be the only valid goal.  Maybe you're
convinced that I just can't drive a realistic sim and that I should go
back to the "arcadish" GP2.  But don't forget we're not all as well
equipped as you are.  Of course, if I had more money I'd buy a TSW
today, but it's simply not the case.  I need to be able to play with
what I have at hand, and that's a TM GP1 wich is not that bad anyway.
And for what it's worth, I think steering really becomes harder as
speed increases so no loss on the realism of the game.

Bottomline:  If you can help me with my problem then please do so, but
stop telling me to play with the linearity slider or to cut on graphic
details and don't bother telling me that if I can't drive the sim the
way it is it's all because I'm a bad driver cause this sim is the best
thing since sliced bread.  This doesn't help me a bit and it also
bothers many other people.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't the purpose of this post.

A. Renault

Here`s a couple of suggestions

The GP1 wheels only have some 180 degrees of rotation if I`m not
mistaken, this can be increased to about 270 degrees by opening the case
and removing some stops giving you the same as the T2`s and Pro`s, more
or less. I have not done this myself, but someone else posted here that
he done this so I guess it can be done

The difference between 180 and 270 degrees may not sound a lot but it
is, I don`t know if there are many Citroen cars (the bigger ones that
is) where you live, but they`re famous for only having 2-2 1/2 turn lock
to lock in their roadcars, as opposed to 3 1/2-4 1/4 in most (European)
cars, now try to drive that in a straight line (with a highpowered power
steering to boot) and you will know what I mean :-), not impossible
though, just takes a while to get used to it

Get a speed adjustable gamecard, getting the joystick input values lower
gives for a more accurat interpretation from the game when you move your
wheel, I think it was Michael C. or Jim Sokoloff who explained this a
while back, sounds strange at first, but it makes sense after a good
explanation.

Adjust the slider a "little" to the right (I know what you said, but
still), having only 180 degree of wheel motion is not a lot, even teh
big boys in the real thing has more (doesn`t use it much though) and you
don`t even get physical feedback, only visual and audio, making it even
harder.

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

Anyway, this idea was worth being said, maybe it can help people who
use pedals instead of the paddles.

About the ACM game card, I thought of that but I'm not rich enough at
this time.  Anyway I really think that there are other solutions, or
else Papy will most certainly have to bundle the game with a gamecard!
I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of steering devices that are even
more crappy than my GP1.

About that linearity slider well...  I've tried so much different
positions (to no avail) that I don't think this alone would be of any
help.

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it!

A. Renault

The GP1 is not a crappy wheel, I used one myself for over a year (with
CH pedals though) and then passed it on to my brother who really likes
it, I liked the wheel itself more than the T2 wheels actually

As for a gamecard or not, if you can lower the speed of your ISA bus in
the BIOS/setup of your machine, maybe that will work, never done it but
it should do much the same, I`m sure there are some techwiz guys here
who knows the answer to this :-)

I aim to please :-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

...and if we're lucky, the wheel pedals can be used for gear shifting in
the final GPL product... ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:54:28 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

<weird exit music>
The outer limits - Please stand by...

A. Renault

David Kaemmer may care though ;-)

Why? OK, I'm deliberately going to be 'elitist' here, but there are now
plenty of sims that cater for the less hard core simmer. Why should an
attempt to produce a very realistic sim be watered down to make it more
suitable for the masses? Keeping it highly realistic will mean it is less
profitable but is that really a *bad* thing?

Diversity is allowed to exist in most marketplaces, but apparently in the
'game' (sic) world, if a product doesn't cater for the lowest common
denominator then it is somehow 'wrong'.

That said, I'm not particularly bothered about introducing extra
configurability into the control options. 'Reduce with speed' is an
excellent compromise to simulate how steering changes with speed IRL. If
people really want null zones then fine.

At the end of the day some people will have no trouble driving a
realistic sim and some will always do so - whatever control system they
use. As an example, look at Mike Laskey who is one of the quickest sim
drivers I know of - and he only ever uses a joystick...

Just because you are having problems doesn't mean that you are a 'bad
driver' but it *may* mean that you are doing something fundamentally
wrong without realising it. The previous generation of sims can
inadvertently teach some bad driving habits and some of them can be hard
to unlearn. If you would like to send me a replay of one or two of your
typical laps then I would be happy to take a look at it and see if I can
spot anything obvious.

Here's a tip for driving on the straights with linear settings. Try to
avoid looking at the track immediately ahead of the car - focus on a
point on the horizon or better still your next braking point. If I look
at the track near the car and think about trying to keep the car straight
then I wobble all over the place as I conciously try and correct the car.
But if I focus far away (and better yet, forget about the car all
together!) it is easy to keep in a straight line. It just happens <g>

Also, when braking for corners do as little as possible that will upset
the balance of the car. Ease off the throttle as smoothly as possible and
only when fully off the throttle, apply the brakes as smoothly as
possible. To start with this will take time, so start the braking process
earlier. Only speed up the process when you are 100% confident.

Cheers,
Richard

I have two colleagues who are using the T/master Grand Prix wheel with the
PADDLES (not "pedals") and they both have co-ordination problems with GPL.

On the other hand, I have a T1 and a friend has a T2, WITH CONVENTIONAL
GEARSTICK AND PEDAL ARRANGEMENT.  Neither of us have any hassles at all
with the steering setup/adjustment in the GPL demo.

As a matter of interest........what steering/pedal system are the Papyrus
team using?  I'll bet my left testicle that they are not using
wheel-mounted paddles for acceleration/braking.
--
Regards,

Bruce.
GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Your opinion is noted.  Although we don't agree, your idea makes
sense.  I guess I could set the steering to non-linear (or somewhere
in between) and get used to it.  The only problem is I want to set the
damn thing to fully linear, wich is the only setting that feels really
right.  But when racing at full speed on straights I have a hard time
controlling the car.  My point is that I'm absolutely sure that a
racecar is not that hard to keep on a straight line in real life.  I
don't race (except karts!) but one of my friends raced in CASCAR
(canadian equivalent to NASCAR) and he agrees that the cars in papy's
sims are too twitchy on straights.  I may be wrong but I believe him.

A. Renault

Ok, I'll put it otherwise.  Some people say that introducing a "reduce
with speed" slider will make the sim unrealistic.  I don't agree.  I
don't really see how this can be called a driving-help since I believe
a car really becomes harder to steer when you're at full speed.  So
that's why I don't really care if poeple claim it will make the sim
unrealistic.  I will only make it more enjoyable for a wider range of
consumers.

Well that's only if you want your company to be there when the next
generation product gets out.

I'm not for a null zone (although I don't care if there is one, I'll
simply turn it off).  I'm glad to see that you can live with a "reduce
with speed" option included in the game.  Some people claim they
can't, and I still can't figure out why.

Agreed.

Just give me you e-mail and I'll send it to you.  Heck, I'll use any
advice I can get!  These cars really give a guy a wild ride!

I already knew that but thanks anyway.  I think my problem resides
more in the fact that I drive a car each day and it never behaves the
way Papy's cars do.  I usually have less acute responses at high speed
than I do at low speeds.  And before anyone asks, of course my car
doesn't have power steering...  Ok, a Honda Civic DX doesn't qualify
as a racecar, but I wonder how much difference there is between that
and an old 67 Lotus GP car...  No aerodynamics, overpowered
rear-engine...  Just kidding...

Ok, I know I can't steer much while under heavy braking, but my
problem is that in order to keep your wheels straight while braking
your car must not point to any side of the road, i.e. you have to be
where you want to be and go where you want to go before you start
braking.  That's what I haven't been unable to do consistently.

Thanks a lot for answerring my post!

A. Renault

Enough with that left testicule ***!  I'll bet my left nut some
people have no left nut left to bet!  (Uuuh, that sounds awkward! And
painful!  Ouuuuh...)

A. Renault

   I have also found it interesting that so many people use linear
steering or have the slider toward the left. In GP2 I always had the
sensitive zone set to full (full non linear?) and reduce with speed set
to full. This seems to be the same as Papy sims with non linear
selected. I have never had problems.

    F1RS on the other hand seems very different to me in the steering
dept. And I think that this is the whole issue ie what people are
accustomed too. My advise to Antoine is to set the lin slider in the
middle somewhere and just get used to it. The more you move it around
the longer it will take you to get comfortable with it and the more
confused and frustrated you will be. All I can say is set it to the best
position for you now and then leave it alone unless it becomes obvious
at a later time that it would be better set somewhere else.

   As for the reduce with speed stuff, can you imagine the extra
confusion by introducing another slider! To be honest I wish Papy had
stayed with just Linear or Non Linear. Maybe just one other setting in
between. GPL, like all Papy sims, has reduce with speed built into it.
You simply have the slider to much to the left for your wheel.

   My ultimate advise is to set the slider as far to the right as need
be to make the car easy to control on the straights and then leave it
alone and get used to it!

A. Renault

Great advice. Sooner or later you have to stop fiddling and start driving!

Andrew McP

What sort of coordination problems are they having?
I'm having a ball with my GP1, only thing is I have to run GPL in
software mode, which takes away quite a bit of the fun. But its the
lack of smooth graphics holding my times back, not my wheel!

--
Nathan Wong          http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
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