Antoine Renault wrote :
>>Yeah but David Kamer also cares about his job! ;o)
>Aaaaargh!!! I mean... Kaemmer!!! I knew it was Kaemmer, but I wrote
>Kamer instead...
You didn't wrote Kramer !
<insert Seinfeld music>
Fran?ois Mnard
Official NROS lapper
Note that this is a non-official .sig file 'cause I am reworking on it.
> >My advise to Antoine is to set the lin slider in the
> >middle somewhere and just get used to it. The more you move it around
> >the longer it will take you to get comfortable with it and the more
> >confused and frustrated you will be. All I can say is set it to the best
> >position for you now and then leave it alone unless it becomes obvious
> >at a later time that it would be better set somewhere else.
> Your opinion is noted. Although we don't agree, your idea makes
> sense. I guess I could set the steering to non-linear (or somewhere
> in between) and get used to it. The only problem is I want to set the
> damn thing to fully linear, wich is the only setting that feels really
> right. But when racing at full speed on straights I have a hard time
> controlling the car. My point is that I'm absolutely sure that a
> racecar is not that hard to keep on a straight line in real life. I
> don't race (except karts!) but one of my friends raced in CASCAR
> (canadian equivalent to NASCAR) and he agrees that the cars in papy's
> sims are too twitchy on straights. I may be wrong but I believe him.
> A. Renault
> Well that's only if you want your company to be there when the next
> generation product gets out.
Antoine, are you trying to say that there is NO reduce with speed
built into GPL? I assure you there is! Maybe not enough for your liking
but it is there.
>Why? OK, I'm deliberately going to be 'elitist' here, but there are now
>plenty of sims that cater for the less hard core simmer. Why should an
>attempt to produce a very realistic sim be watered down to make it more
>suitable for the masses? Keeping it highly realistic will mean it is less
>profitable but is that really a *bad* thing?
I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit
"the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn
them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help
or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will
be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in
this context.)
I expect the final game to have a wide variety of help options which
all will be coupled with tiny performance penalties, just like the
auto shift and ABS options in the demo. This way, the fastest guys
will still be driving without helps.
Let me analyse your reasoning:
If you're selling a top notch product in a comparatively small number
of units, the price per unit has to make up for the little volume.
Mercedes E300 $50000 Fiat 600 $ 5000
Mercedes can afford to sell fewer cars than Fiat because the earn more
per unit. (The prices are made up, but you see what I mean.)
TSW $ 500 T2 $ 50
Trev can afford to sell fewer wheels than Thrustmaster for the same
reason.
GPL $ 50 F1RS $ 50
Papyrus can afford to sell fewer copies than Ubi --- wait, now, if
there was a market for $500.- autosims, this might work. :)
Making computer games is a lot like the Hollywood movie industry. Box
office is most important, and the price per ticket is more or less
fixed. If the movie happens to become a classic work of art, so much
the better. I'd prefer to see GPL become the "Pulp Fiction" of
autosims, not the "Heaven's Gate". :)
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.
<snip>
% I expect the final game to have a wide variety of help options which
% all will be coupled with tiny performance penalties, just like the
% auto shift and ABS options in the demo. This way, the fastest guys
% will still be driving without helps.
I actually expect them to even have an arcade mode ala NASCAR2. There
is no harm in including such an option and it will broaden the market
value of the product. Besides, some poor sucker may get bitten by the
program and eventually move up to non-arcade mode. Maybe that's what
everyone is afraid of, one more hot-shot simmer to compete against. <G>
<snip>
% Making computer games is a lot like the Hollywood movie industry. Box
% office is most important, and the price per ticket is more or less
% fixed. If the movie happens to become a classic work of art, so much
% the better. I'd prefer to see GPL become the "Pulp Fiction" of
% autosims, not the "Heaven's Gate". :)
Ouch, that hurts! While I enjoyed Pulp Fiction alot, I felt that
Heaven's Gate was a much better work of art than Pulp Fiction. But,
maybe that's what you are referring to here. You would rather see GPL
reach a wider audience? The nice thing about software is that one can
make it configurable to the users taste. I certainly don't want Papy to
remove the art, but I too would like to see more people enjoy such a
fine product as GPL.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I'm using an old (and much abused) T2 and after finding a linear/non-linear
balance that I feel comfortable with I have no problems. I may not be that
fast (1:11.20) but I can control the car okay, (well, most of the time ;-)
You should know that I haven't played GPL for a week now, so I don't think
1:10/1:09 is out of my reach (I hope!!). I found I needed to race against
other cars/drivers again. I don't think I'd be happy with just a testing
contract, I enjoy racing far more.
Anyway, if I can lap in under 1:11 then it can't be that tough, as long as
you have the right equipment.
My understanding of wheel mounted paddles is that they are on/off switches
not analog devices that the brake, throttle should be. They should be
great for gear changes though.
Alan
GPL *is* the 'next generation product' <g> The key really though is
whether there is a big enough marketplace. It doesn't have to reach the
maximum number of consumers, just enough to be comfortably profitable.
With the right marketing a highly realistic sim could probably find
enough of a core market simply amongst ex-racers and would be racers.
Since the cost of a top end PC and wheel/pedals is significantly less
than buying and running a race car, decent equipment may not be too much
of a barrier. The biggest hurdle will be getting them to believe that
it's worth trying <g>
No, nor can I. If the sim can support non-linear steering and brake and
throttle help then extra configurability in the control department is a
no brainer IMHO.
is valid and will get to me <g>
Actually at turns 6 and 8 it's best to brake diagonally across the road
towards the apex - that way when you start the turn in the camber is
working in your favour rather than against you!
I'm increasingly finding that I *can* brake into the corners, steer
whilst braking, etc. It's not really the best thing to do but it's very
useful when the car is already in trouble <g>
Cheers,
Richard
>My understanding of wheel mounted paddles is that they are on/off switches
>not analog devices that the brake, throttle should be. They should be
>great for gear changes though.
>Alan
Well... Might be because F1 cars don't roll as much as those in GPL!
I guess you're right. But I still think it shouldn't upset the car as
much as it does... I'm sure many will agree when we'll (finally) be
able to race against CC. Some people (myself included) will have a
hard time not touching other cars while passing on straights if the
car is so unstable that it won't hold a straight line. It has to be
unstable, but not to that degree IMHO...
A. Renault
Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have
to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those
skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but
at the same time they have to reach out to new customers.
Non that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it should be
adjustable, or at least have a more significant effect on steering (by
my standards anyway - I don't expect you or anyone to agree on this
one, that's why an adjustable feature is what I'm asking for).
A. Renault
says...
I just cannot become accustomed to accelerating and braking with hand-
operated levers. I've tried this wheel, but for me it is useless and I
think that is where my two mates are at.....they really need a
conventional arrangement.
It's a matter of what the individual prefers, of course.
--
Regards,
---
Bruce.
The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/
No....they are actual potentiometers in this case.
I....and others I know....just find this type of arrangement difficult,
if not impossible, to come to terms with. The act of
braking/accelerating whilst using hand-operated levers just doesn't come
naturally.
--
Regards,
---
Bruce.
The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/
Actually, since his knowledge of driving sims is likely to be pretty
small, he'll suggest flashier graphics....
....sort of like the SODA situation really <g>
It all depends on how they are done. I don't mind anything that merely
pre-processes the driver's input in a defined manner (so reduce with
speed is fine in my book), and obviously non-performance enhancing aids
(such as Papy's implementation of braking help) are fine. But I draw the
line at abominations like GP2's opposite lock. That one help effectively
killed off most interest in GP2 by hard core sim fans - at least those
that wanted to compete in leagues.
If the games industry is truely comparable to the Hollywood movie
industry then I think it's time to start looking for another hobby ;-)
Thankfully I think a lot of games producers have considerably more
integrity than can be found anywhere near Hollywood and the attitude is
more one of 'produce a classic and the sales will be high' than 'produce
something for the mass market and kid everyone that it is a classic'.
Cheers,
Richard
> > As has been mentioned by others, it is a matter of how good the wheel
> >is as to whether it will allow you to run in linear mode. Running in NL
> >with all Papy sims I have NEVER had any problems at all - particularly
> >in a straight line. Also, as I have mentioned before, body roll and
> >weight transfer are a significant part of Papy sims and it takes a
> >little anticipation of the weight transfer, when exiting corners, to
> >keep the car dead straight. Once again, it's a matter of what you are
> >accustomed to. GP2 and F1RS seem to have little or no body roll
> >modelling at all.
> Well... Might be because F1 cars don't roll as much as those in GPL!
> I guess you're right. But I still think it shouldn't upset the car as
> much as it does... I'm sure many will agree when we'll (finally) be
> able to race against CC. Some people (myself included) will have a
> hard time not touching other cars while passing on straights if the
> car is so unstable that it won't hold a straight line. It has to be
> unstable, but not to that degree IMHO...
> >MUST continue to increase or sales will decrease for sure and a whole
> >bunch of sim racers would wait till a good sim arrived and go and play
> >with flight sims, etc in the meantime.
> Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have
> to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those
> skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but
> at the same time they have to reach out to new customers.
