: About that linearity slider well... I've tried so much different
: positions (to no avail) that I don't think this alone would be of any
: help.
:
Personally, I feel that unless one has a force-feedback wheel (and even some
kind of force simulator), a kind of "reduce linearity with speed", or something
similar is justifiable. When I'm driving (a real car) the resistance of the
wheel to my movements is a pretty good indicator of how close to the cornering
limit I am. As one approaches the limit, the wheel becomes progressively
stiffer, until suddenly it becomes limp when the car starts sliding. I think
your comments about a real car resisting changes in direction at speed are
valid.
Ryan
Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider"
approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you
already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL!
A. Renault
% > Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to
% >mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I
% >would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham
% >with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice.
% Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider"
% approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you
% already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL!
I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity.
However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I
find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to
lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would
like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this
travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with
less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic?
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> >MUST continue to increase or sales will decrease for sure and a whole
>> >bunch of sim racers would wait till a good sim arrived and go and play
>> >with flight sims, etc in the meantime.
>> Ok, I get your point. But even if realism increases, they still have
>> to include options that will help the new/casual user to get those
>> skills. They have to keep in touch with their current customers, but
>> at the same time they have to reach out to new customers.
> Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to
>mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I
>would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham
>with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice.
It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for
my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a
difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a
good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get
a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds.
--
spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.
On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:01:46 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"
A. Renault
I don`t think that brake pedal behaviour is realistic, not in GPL nor in any
other sim. But that is just because the pedals in PC controllers do not
actually simulate real brake pedals very well. You see, brake systems in
cars are operated hidraulically: when they start to have an effect, it is
the pressure the driver feels, and not the travel, that indicates to him how
heavily he is acting on the brake. On PC pedals, this would mean that all
the braking should be done in the final 1/4 of the travel, or even less (as
it happens in most real cars), and it would have to have a sort of thick
*** stop, to simulate the effect of increased hydraulic pressure with
increased braking effort. Thrustmaster tried to do something about this, in
the T2, by fitting a stronger spring on the brake than on the gas pedal, but
they didn`t go quite far enough. It was an improvement though, upon the
earlier T1
So, you see, IMO this is a hardware issue, and not really connected with any
particular sim.
As always, I apologise for any mistakes.
Daniel Fris
>> I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit
>> "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn
>> them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help
>> or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will
>> be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in
>> this context.)
> Don't you think GPL is already easy enough with all aids in a GP3
>Brabham?
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.
> It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for
> my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a
> difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a
> good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get
> a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds.
> % > Well, they do have throttle and braking help and auto gears. Not to
> % >mention the very easy in comparison GP3's. What else could they have? I
> % >would imagine a novice could lap fairly consistantly in a GP3 Brabham
> % >with all aids. Hard to say of course if your far from being a novice.
> % Yes of course these options are nice, but I prefer the "slider"
> % approach as you can move more progressively towards realism. As you
> % already know the learning curve is pretty steep in GPL!
> I know most of the racket has been about the steering sensitivity.
> However, I have a big problem with the sensitivity of the brakes. I
> find that just the slightest amount of pressure and they are ready to
> lock. I still have plenty of travel left in my brake pedal and would
> like to see a "slider" setting that will allow me to use more of this
> travel. It seems that with GPL the brakes are in full lock mode with
> less than 40% of brake travel. Is this realistic?
Also Micheal, especially if you have been playing with your V II
drivers (I think you said you have a V II), even with the optimised
steering input, you need to recalibrate in Win 95 and again in GPL. I
have found my steering to go way out of whack after installing new
drivers for the V II. Maybe other things cause this too and also effect
acc/braking.
> >> I don't think, however, that GPL needs to be "watered down" to suit
> >> "the masses". The nice thing about help *options* is that you can turn
> >> them off - the sim car you're driving won't feature opposite lock help
> >> or auto braking, the car for the casual gamer will. And everybody will
> >> be happy. (BTW, I don't see "reduce with speed" as a driving aid in
> >> this context.)
> > Don't you think GPL is already easy enough with all aids in a GP3
> >Brabham?
> Easy enough, but maybe not spectacular enough.
% > I'm a novice. I keep spinning, usually by oversteering entering a
% > curve a bit too hot, and then overcorrecting. G3 car, all aids off.
% > T2 wheel and Voodoo1 and P55C at 2.5x83 -- so I'm not blaming my
% > spins on the controller or my frame rate, but on my incompetence.
% >
% > It's hard to keep myself from going into the corners too fast for
% > my skill level. I don't think the aids would really make a
% > difference there. What might help would be a ghost car of a
% > good driver taking it easy around the track, so that I could get
% > a better feel for the right driving line and entry speeds.
% >
% BIG TIP - apply a little throttle as you turn in to get some weight
% over the rear wheels.
And the key word here is "little", be smooth and only apply just a touch
of throttle to roll the weight over the rear wheels. I've also found
that it helps, at first, to try to be slightly "inside" the groove until
you have confidence in the "feel" of the car.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>And the key word here is "little", be smooth and only apply just a touch
>of throttle to roll the weight over the rear wheels. I've also found
>that it helps, at first, to try to be slightly "inside" the groove until
>you have confidence in the "feel" of the car.
When I do lose it, I still can't recover. Some of the countersteering
exhibitions I've seen in fast lap replays amaze me.
Anyway, back to the original point of this thread, I don't think the
driving aids are all that necessary even for novices, at least not
novices with wheels. Just some good advice and some practice. I hope
the full game ships with a driving guide, to give novices without net
access a fighting chance.
--
spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.
% Thanks for the tips, guys. I read the Apex track guide about five times
% last night, and practiced for a couple of hours, and now I'm turning
% pretty consistent 1:31-1:32 laps in the G3 car, with no aids. 8
% seconds slower than the big boys, but I'm not spinning out much
% anymore. Bringing up my speed through the corners is going to be a
% gradual process. Part of the problem is that the gauges are unreadable,
% making it hard to set a consistent target entry speed.
You are on the right track. At first do not concentrate on speed,
but staying on the track and getting to know the "feel" of your car.
Part of that feel is achieved by "listening". Listen to the engine
(even though the sounds are just "placeholders") and you can gauge your
speed fairly well. Don't distract yourself by looking at the gauges.
Concetrate on the road and the feel of the car. When it begins to sink
in (and the learning plateaus in GPL are many and quite steep) it will
become second nature. Then you can start to work on speed. But first be
slow and consistent. Also, until you really get a handle on controlling
the car, it is best to be in a higher gear than you want when cornering.
It is safer to be in a higher gear than too low of a gear and having too
much torque in the rear wheels when you try to bring the car back into
shape. Take your time climbing the speed ladder and you will achieve
your goal much faster than if you push too hard!
% When I do lose it, I still can't recover. Some of the countersteering
% exhibitions I've seen in fast lap replays amaze me.
It can depend on where you lose it. If you are way off camber it may be
nigh impossible to save. Also the countersteering is usually in
conjuction with subtle throttle play. As a matter of fact, unless you
really feel the car is going to get totally away from you, try to
control it first with the throttle. Just touching the throttle a hair
can transfer enough weight to the rear to keep it from sliding away.
While a light lift (or even a feather touch on the brake) can help
transfer the weight to the front tires and help with understeer.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<snip>
Arguably, the choice of the movie titles wasn't perfect to illustrate
my point. What I wanted to express was: both movies represent
impressive artistic achievements (IMHO), they both received critical
acclaim. Yet, "Pulp Fiction" was also a commercial success, whereas
"Heaven's Gate" led to the bancrupcy of the production company IIRC.
Tarantino is a superstar of the industry; Cimino, AFAIK, is not in the
movie business anymore.
If we wanted to extend the film / sim analogy a bit, I would argue
that Crammond corresponds to Kubrick: every single work a masterpiece,
but you have to wait forever for the next one. :)
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.
