rec.autos.simulators

I noticed 90% of you simulation people swear by the***Pit (in-car) view. I
just have a few questions as to why...

If you are sitting at your desk, you have your steering wheel already
infront of you. You also have a window that you look out of (your  monitor),
right?

In***pit view, there's a rendered steering wheel that moves when you do. I
don't understand at all! There's already a REAL wheel right infront of you,
in the proper spot, and it moves when you do. In***pit view, you look
through the car's winshield, and are obstructed by the car's dash. But,
you're already looking through a winshield (your monitor) and you're already
obstructed by the size of that monitor.

I just don't understand it. You can see your own wheel, and you look through
a glass monitor only to see an emulated wheel and glass winshield. Seems
sort of redundant to me.

WHY isn't there a view from about where the winshield is? What I mean is,
the viewpoint should be placed 2 feet infront of where your head would be
(about where the winshield is).

Think about it, my face is 2 feet from my monitor, so shouldn't the monitor
be displaying from the point of view 2 feet infront of where the driver's
head is (about where the winshield is).

I understand the***pit view, if I was WEARING my monitor on my head...

I've tried to drive lots of games on the***pit view, and couldn't stand
doing it at all. The best view I find is the view that is fullscreen without
anything infront of it. This is usually the "Bumper" or "Bonnet" type view.
But, I'm sure as you know there are a few problems with that. With a
"Bumper" view, your POV is a lot lower to the ground than it would be if you
were actually in the car.

--
Mike Beauchamp
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

I hope you understood what I was trying to say though about the view
thing...

About the peripheral vision...  If you say that you would lose all side
views because the POV is moved 2 feet forward, then how does the "bumper
camera" work? I mean, that's like 6-7 feet forward isn't it? I can drive
perfectly find from the bumper views in all games...

--
Mike Beauchamp
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

That's the main reason why I prefer***pit view. It gives the correct
eye level and perspective of the track, I find it easier to deal with
other cars on the track as well as pick the turn in point and apex of
the track from a***pit view.

The only game that I've played that has given me a decent perspective
whilst not having a***pit view would be GT3 but if it had a***pit
view, I'd use it.

Cheers,
Rod.

Any game developers listening? :)

--
Mike Beauchamp
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Depends on how it's been implemented. I find it a touch disorienting
seeing the track extending to the bottom of the monitor. It's hard
to determine the attitude of the car without the reference of a bonnet,
nose cone or***pit.

Like I said, GT3 seems to convey this well enough, but it's the only
game/sim that I play where it does.

Same applies to flight-sims where a no-cockpit view actually markedly
improves your visibility but doesn't sufficiently reflect the attitude
of the plane.

Cheers,
Rod.

  No.
   You'll find I am one of the most virulent***pit Nazi's.  If I'm
simulating driving then I want to simulate where my ***should be.  I know
many people have problems with two wheels, but that has never been a problem
for me.  I just look out the window, not at the wheel.
  A Winston cup driver does not sit in a seat like a regular car, the seat
is lower, much lower, down on the floorpan.  your view is barely level with
the top of the dash.  So a real driver can't see the pretty paint job on the
bonnet, he can't see the tire left by the pit crew just in front of him.
  I'm sure we can argue for the rest of the year about how accurate a
paticular viewpoint is...but I don't drive my personal car perched up on the
nose, I don't fly behind my car on a hanglider swooping behind the vehicle.
I drive from inside the car.   So when I use a simulator, I use the view
that seems most accurate to what a real race driver would see.  That...is
the***pit view.
  Dave Henrie

What I'm saying is that since the monitor is 2 feet away from my face, then
the viewpoint should be 2 feet infront of where the drivers head would be in
the car. The way***pit views are now, I'd have to have the monitor
strapped to my face for it to be accurate. Do you see what I'm saying?

And as for winston cup drivers not sitting at the same height, that will
still totally be reflected if the view was moved 2 feet foward to the
winshield. I didn't say 2 feet downward or anything...

--
Mike Beauchamp
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

The***pit view gives you a sense of how wide the car itself is.
You don't get that from the bumper view. On games with wide
tracks it doesn't matter, but on sims where precise track or
racing line does matter (rally, NASCAR, Indy Car/F1) the bumper
view is too far forward.

The bumper view also doesn't "shift slightly" to account for your
eyes anticipating the turn, where as most incockpit views do
shift slightly in a turn.

--KC

For me the wheel I hold is not visible when I drive. I limit my view to what
is on the monitor, the rest of the world vanishes... So the wheel on the
screen is only natural to me. In GPL I even have the driver's arms on. The
motions of the wheel and the arms provide for some extra feedback.

Bart Westra

Not necessarily, I have my monitor to the left, angled towards me. I look
straight past my MOMO at the virtual wheel.

It's not, it would be if one was sitting in a full motion simulator, but
it's not in PC racing sims. To convey the illusion of motion, cornerning
forces, etc.. the***pit viewpoint moves around a little to trick one's
brain into "feeling" the car. Your PC steering wheel is not attached to the
virtual car, so, should you use it as part of your particular viewpoint, the
dash of the car doesn't stay put with reference to your wheel. I personally
find that very off-putting, but any racing sim worth it's salt allows you to
turn the wheel/hands off so you can have things your way and see for
yourself whether you like it or not.

Again, true, but only if one's operating in an environment where totally
immersive, as in a full motion simulator with wraparound screen or virtual
reality. For the PC I agree with Bart. My home office looks nothing like a
race car on a track, so the monitor must provide me with a virtual world to
concentrate on so as to lock out everything else.

Yes, your situational awareness is bound to suffer. However, as a driver
your priority is still extract the maximum from your car and the conditions,
how you do that is up to you.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

The moving wheels now-a-days are eye candy for sure but they do help a bit
in seeing that the computer is seeing yuor movments exactly... your wheel on
yuor desk's movment does not represent the amount of movement exactly of the
"virtual wheel" always.

You don't use a***pit view for that. You use it since its the best palce
to get a feeling of the car, the feel it move around you liek you would in
real life. You also have most of your guages and a sense of speed.
Out of car views are playstation views, very few people learn to go fast
with that view and a wheel, which is wy a Playstation game have never
emulated a sim.

Eh, most do have that feature now. A lot of rally cars have the top of the
bonnet which is haveing the camera just at the windshield and F1 type games
have it somehwer on teh nose whre there is no longer any obstructions.
Problem is, both are too fqr forward to aain allow you feel the car rotating
around you, it rotate from the backbefore yuo can detect it.

Well, if nothing else, we should be able to adjust the seating position in
the***pit view for that. I sit somewhat close to my monitor when i'm
racing, but my room mate sits a lot farther away. I'm the one with the
larger monitor also, 19" while his is 17". So, i see what you're saying.
There should be more options, but don't take my***pit view away.  =)
--
- Will DeRivera
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- Hi, I'm a sig virus.
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the window frame is a good reference for a lot of stuff.  if a sim
implements head movements (not left-right, but a head thats bumping
around),***pit view greatly adds to the driving feeling, and
provides a lot of feedback.

you mean you've found a game that features a***pit camera, but no
hood camera?

that argument isn't very good.  or, rather, it is, but it carries with
it another thing that wouldn't be very beneficial.  the field of view
would be about 20-25 degrees, and if you ignore that, the whole
argument falls on its face. :)

well, then don't.  it's not like you need our permission or anything. :)

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
                    to err is human -- to forgive is bovine.

I think what you're saying is that the user should be allowed to
specify the POV and FOV for himself.  as a former unix programmer, I
whole-heartedly agree with this line of thinking. :)

--
Gunnar
    #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
                               myk, trygg og god.