rec.autos.simulators

>See X-Plane - identical model.

>Low volume - high price ( 10,000 - $100 )

> On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:28:43 +0100, "Douglas Ellison"

> >See X-Plane - identical model.

> >Low volume - high price ( 10,000 - $100 )

> High price?

> I can walk down to EB and pick up X-plane for $10.  I don't think I've
> ever seen it for more than $20-30.

> > Looks like the concept is everything we (well, at least I)
> > have wished for. It's almost scary how close it is to
> > the hard core niche product many have asked for in
> > this newsgroup.

> > The phrase 'This is an entirely new project' makes
> > me a bit worried though...

> Note: this is more a business case analysis than game analysis. Stop
reading
> now if you'll be bored!

> The great things about this potential game are the focus on the features
> that Sim Racers want - modularity, expansion, realistic physics, online
> play. It really comes across as a mouth watering temptation.

> However, before we get too e***d, I think we need to realistically
> consider the business model and ask the question: Is this going to work?
Are
> West going to be able to pull this off?

> I understand that West is a small (family?) outfit. Such an undertaking as
> their new proposal requires huge capital and a lot of risk. Can a
simulation
> that requires a lot more work than a racing game, but appeals to a much
> smaller, niche market, really be viable?

> There are some promising signs:

> Pricing model. The casual gamer will pay little more than street price for
> the standard game. However, the dedicated Sim Racer will pay extra for
each
> option, and for new tracks. I would imagine that a full blown package with
> all options and extra tracks might cost in the vicinity of US$500, plus
> maybe a subscription for high level online racing. This is good thing. Sim
> Racers have consistantly said that they would pay for the right product -
> consider the recent threads about people demanding a GPL2 and saying that
> they'd pay $500 for it!

> Modular format. The creators understand that people want an evolving Sim,
> with new cars, new tracks, and maybe even new concepts in racing. All of
> this will add value to the base product and Intellecutal Property.
However,
> don't be surprised if unlike current sims, West control the additions to
> their products and require all  new cars/tracks to licenced from them
> instead of freely available from third party enthusiasts. Maybe they will
> encourage people by offereing a comission on new cars/tracks that are
sold.

> Vapourware?

> After 2 years, WSC vanished into the  vapourware cloud it had always been
> in. It sees that West relied on a vapourware business model, hoping that
VCs
> or 3rd parties would take enough of an interest in their game to sponsor
the
> development. West was too small to take this risk by themselves. Racing
> legends appears to be starting off the same way. We have been promised the
> stars, but have seen nothing in concrete except a beautifully rendered,
but
> practically un-realistic racing car. Even with Moore's Law, it will take a
> decade or so before we see cars with that level detail running around the
> track together in real time!

> The web site comes across to me a VC marketing tool, more than a realistic
> "this is what is coming soon" type site.

> Risk. To get this concept into production requires a huge amount of risk
> taking. Not only does the game have to work, but there are issues of
> infrastucture for hosting online racing, marketing, and finding a top
notch
> distribution outfit. Something of this scale is normally only taken on by
> large corporations prepared to take the gamble. Remember that recently
Papy
> declined to do a GPL2, even though the Sim Racing community loved the
> original so much. At the end of the day, Papy made a business decision -
> they decided that even a very vocal niche market wasn't enough to justify
> the expense of doing the game.

> dot game boom?

> After the dot com crashes of the last 2 years, we have seen a resurgance
in
> computer games, especially online ***. A lot of people are saying its
the
> next "big thing". In many ways I agree. Machines are get fast enough to
some
> wonderful stuff, and broadband has really taken off, so the infrastructure
> is there to support a new generation of online ***.

> However, have we already forgotten the lesson of the dot com boom? In the
> end, it was mostly the new comers like web van that did the skyrocket and
> fell back to earth. However, the traditional players ended up surviving
and
> now prosper. I wonder if it will be the same for ***?

> Maybe I'm being a little too cynical. If West can get this game to at
least
> inital production, and the concept takes off, then they might be able to
> sell out to one of the established big players and walk away smiling. It
> might also drive forward the market and help create standards for wanted
> peripherals such as FF pedals (inc clutch), and hydraulic***pits that
> simulate motion and g-forces.

> As for me, I'll take a wait and see. I *hope* it all works out.

> Tim

>Tim,

>     Your points are well taken.  The Wests don't exactly have what one
>could call by any stretch of the imagination a good track record.  I don't
>see any difference between this concept and WSC other then they're starting
>with open wheel cars verses sport cars.

>     They didn't have the capital to produce and complete WSC, hense the
>association with Empire that ended in a messy divorce. Why should we now
>believe that this time is any different?

>     As previously stated in another thread, I'm one of the famed & named
>"Vaporware" posters.  So until we have a workable demo which is at min. few
>fully funtional cars on a completely finished track, I shall continue to
>label all Wests claimed efforts as Vaporware.

>     Let them prove us doubters wrong. All the posts claiming otherwise is
>pure BS. They mean nothing. A demo is the only proof.

> One other thing I question is the whole Legend theme. They have put
> themselves in a place to compete with GPL. What happened to Sports Cars?
> With so many great addons for GPL out there and more coming almost daily
> its gonna be interesting to see how many people are willing to pay that
> kind of coin for the software plus the surely needed hardware upgrades
> when GPL runs just fine on what they have and stays fresh with all the
> addons.

> MadDAWG

>> No new cars ( i.e. nothing but graphical patches to current ones ),
> physics,
>> genres

> True but that's a long term look at WRL. Basically WRL will start out real
> similar to GPL. Now if WRL lives up to the hype I'm sure it will make GPL
> look like a game. For alot of people WRL will be a huge investment between
> software and hardware. I think alot of people will have a hard time
> spending the coin for basically GPL2. Now if it was a different genre. I
> know I was less than impressed with the car choices. Now if they had done
> say Trans Am
> legends with Cougars, Mustangs, Camaros, and Cudas I'd be all over it.  I
> do like the legends vs. modern aspect of the game just so we have deal
> with these chicane laden versions of today's tracks.

> MadDAWG

> Tim,

>      Your points are well taken.  The Wests don't exactly have what one
> could call by any stretch of the imagination a good track record.  I don't
> see any difference between this concept and WSC other then they're
starting
> with open wheel cars verses sport cars.

>      They didn't have the capital to produce and complete WSC, hense the
> association with Empire that ended in a messy divorce. Why should we now
> believe that this time is any different?

>      As previously stated in another thread, I'm one of the famed & named
> "Vaporware" posters.  So until we have a workable demo which is at min.
few
> fully funtional cars on a completely finished track, I shall continue to
> label all Wests claimed efforts as Vaporware.

>      Let them prove us doubters wrong. All the posts claiming otherwise is
> pure BS. They mean nothing. A demo is the only proof.

> Joel Willstein

> --

> "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a
corner
> till the time you brake for the next turn
> , then you have enough horsepower."
> Mark Donohue

> > > Looks like the concept is everything we (well, at least I)
> > > have wished for. It's almost scary how close it is to
> > > the hard core niche product many have asked for in
> > > this newsgroup.

> > > The phrase 'This is an entirely new project' makes
> > > me a bit worried though...

> > Note: this is more a business case analysis than game analysis. Stop
> reading
> > now if you'll be bored!

> > The great things about this potential game are the focus on the features
> > that Sim Racers want - modularity, expansion, realistic physics, online
> > play. It really comes across as a mouth watering temptation.

> > However, before we get too e***d, I think we need to realistically
> > consider the business model and ask the question: Is this going to work?
> Are
> > West going to be able to pull this off?

> > I understand that West is a small (family?) outfit. Such an undertaking
as
> > their new proposal requires huge capital and a lot of risk. Can a
> simulation
> > that requires a lot more work than a racing game, but appeals to a much
> > smaller, niche market, really be viable?

> > There are some promising signs:

> > Pricing model. The casual gamer will pay little more than street price
for
> > the standard game. However, the dedicated Sim Racer will pay extra for
> each
> > option, and for new tracks. I would imagine that a full blown package
with
> > all options and extra tracks might cost in the vicinity of US$500, plus
> > maybe a subscription for high level online racing. This is good thing.
Sim
> > Racers have consistantly said that they would pay for the right
product -
> > consider the recent threads about people demanding a GPL2 and saying
that
> > they'd pay $500 for it!

> > Modular format. The creators understand that people want an evolving
Sim,
> > with new cars, new tracks, and maybe even new concepts in racing. All of
> > this will add value to the base product and Intellecutal Property.
> However,
> > don't be surprised if unlike current sims, West control the additions to
> > their products and require all  new cars/tracks to licenced from them
> > instead of freely available from third party enthusiasts. Maybe they
will
> > encourage people by offereing a comission on new cars/tracks that are
> sold.

> > Vapourware?

> > After 2 years, WSC vanished into the  vapourware cloud it had always
been
> > in. It sees that West relied on a vapourware business model, hoping that
> VCs
> > or 3rd parties would take enough of an interest in their game to sponsor
> the
> > development. West was too small to take this risk by themselves. Racing
> > legends appears to be starting off the same way. We have been promised
the
> > stars, but have seen nothing in concrete except a beautifully rendered,
> but
> > practically un-realistic racing car. Even with Moore's Law, it will take
a
> > decade or so before we see cars with that level detail running around
the
> > track together in real time!

> > The web site comes across to me a VC marketing tool, more than a
realistic
> > "this is what is coming soon" type site.

> > Risk. To get this concept into production requires a huge amount of risk
> > taking. Not only does the game have to work, but there are issues of
> > infrastucture for hosting online racing, marketing, and finding a top
> notch
> > distribution outfit. Something of this scale is normally only taken on
by
> > large corporations prepared to take the gamble. Remember that recently
> Papy
> > declined to do a GPL2, even though the Sim Racing community loved the
> > original so much. At the end of the day, Papy made a business decision -
> > they decided that even a very vocal niche market wasn't enough to
justify
> > the expense of doing the game.

> > dot game boom?

> > After the dot com crashes of the last 2 years, we have seen a resurgance
> in
> > computer games, especially online ***. A lot of people are saying its
> the
> > next "big thing". In many ways I agree. Machines are get fast enough to
> some
> > wonderful stuff, and broadband has really taken off, so the
infrastructure
> > is there to support a new generation of online ***.

> > However, have we already forgotten the lesson of the dot com boom? In
the
> > end, it was mostly the new comers like web van that did the skyrocket
and
> > fell back to earth. However, the traditional players ended up surviving
> and
> > now prosper. I wonder if it will be the same for ***?

> > Maybe I'm being a little too cynical. If West can get this game to at
> least
> > inital production, and the concept takes off, then they might be able to
> > sell out to one of the established big players and walk away smiling. It
> > might also drive forward the market and help create standards for wanted
> > peripherals such as FF pedals (inc clutch), and hydraulic***pits that
> > simulate motion and g-forces.

> > As for me, I'll take a wait and see. I *hope* it all works out.

> > Tim