rec.autos.simulators

> >      Your points are well taken.  The Wests don't exactly have what one
> > could call by any stretch of the imagination a good track record.  I
don't
> > see any difference between this concept and WSC other then they're
> starting
> > with open wheel cars verses sport cars.

> >      They didn't have the capital to produce and complete WSC, hense the
> > association with Empire that ended in a messy divorce. Why should we now
> > believe that this time is any different?

> >      As previously stated in another thread, I'm one of the famed &
named
> > "Vaporware" posters.  So until we have a workable demo which is at min.
> few
> > fully funtional cars on a completely finished track, I shall continue to
> > label all Wests claimed efforts as Vaporware.

> >      Let them prove us doubters wrong. All the posts claiming otherwise
is
> > pure BS. They mean nothing. A demo is the only proof.

> > Joel Willstein

> > --

> > "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a
> corner
> > till the time you brake for the next turn
> > , then you have enough horsepower."
> > Mark Donohue

> > > > Looks like the concept is everything we (well, at least I)
> > > > have wished for. It's almost scary how close it is to
> > > > the hard core niche product many have asked for in
> > > > this newsgroup.

> > > > The phrase 'This is an entirely new project' makes
> > > > me a bit worried though...

> > > Note: this is more a business case analysis than game analysis. Stop
> > reading
> > > now if you'll be bored!

> > > The great things about this potential game are the focus on the
features
> > > that Sim Racers want - modularity, expansion, realistic physics,
online
> > > play. It really comes across as a mouth watering temptation.

> > > However, before we get too e***d, I think we need to realistically
> > > consider the business model and ask the question: Is this going to
work?
> > Are
> > > West going to be able to pull this off?

> > > I understand that West is a small (family?) outfit. Such an
undertaking
> as
> > > their new proposal requires huge capital and a lot of risk. Can a
> > simulation
> > > that requires a lot more work than a racing game, but appeals to a
much
> > > smaller, niche market, really be viable?

> > > There are some promising signs:

> > > Pricing model. The casual gamer will pay little more than street price
> for
> > > the standard game. However, the dedicated Sim Racer will pay extra for
> > each
> > > option, and for new tracks. I would imagine that a full blown package
> with
> > > all options and extra tracks might cost in the vicinity of US$500,
plus
> > > maybe a subscription for high level online racing. This is good thing.
> Sim
> > > Racers have consistantly said that they would pay for the right
> product -
> > > consider the recent threads about people demanding a GPL2 and saying
> that
> > > they'd pay $500 for it!

> > > Modular format. The creators understand that people want an evolving
> Sim,
> > > with new cars, new tracks, and maybe even new concepts in racing. All
of
> > > this will add value to the base product and Intellecutal Property.
> > However,
> > > don't be surprised if unlike current sims, West control the additions
to
> > > their products and require all  new cars/tracks to licenced from them
> > > instead of freely available from third party enthusiasts. Maybe they
> will
> > > encourage people by offereing a comission on new cars/tracks that are
> > sold.

> > > Vapourware?

> > > After 2 years, WSC vanished into the  vapourware cloud it had always
> been
> > > in. It sees that West relied on a vapourware business model, hoping
that
> > VCs
> > > or 3rd parties would take enough of an interest in their game to
sponsor
> > the
> > > development. West was too small to take this risk by themselves.
Racing
> > > legends appears to be starting off the same way. We have been promised
> the
> > > stars, but have seen nothing in concrete except a beautifully
rendered,
> > but
> > > practically un-realistic racing car. Even with Moore's Law, it will
take
> a
> > > decade or so before we see cars with that level detail running around
> the
> > > track together in real time!

> > > The web site comes across to me a VC marketing tool, more than a
> realistic
> > > "this is what is coming soon" type site.

> > > Risk. To get this concept into production requires a huge amount of
risk
> > > taking. Not only does the game have to work, but there are issues of
> > > infrastucture for hosting online racing, marketing, and finding a top
> > notch
> > > distribution outfit. Something of this scale is normally only taken on
> by
> > > large corporations prepared to take the gamble. Remember that recently
> > Papy
> > > declined to do a GPL2, even though the Sim Racing community loved the
> > > original so much. At the end of the day, Papy made a business
decision -
> > > they decided that even a very vocal niche market wasn't enough to
> justify
> > > the expense of doing the game.

> > > dot game boom?

> > > After the dot com crashes of the last 2 years, we have seen a
resurgance
> > in
> > > computer games, especially online ***. A lot of people are saying
its
> > the
> > > next "big thing". In many ways I agree. Machines are get fast enough
to
> > some
> > > wonderful stuff, and broadband has really taken off, so the
> infrastructure
> > > is there to support a new generation of online ***.

> > > However, have we already forgotten the lesson of the dot com boom? In
> the
> > > end, it was mostly the new comers like web van that did the skyrocket
> and
> > > fell back to earth. However, the traditional players ended up
surviving
> > and
> > > now prosper. I wonder if it will be the same for ***?

> > > Maybe I'm being a little too cynical. If West can get this game to at
> > least
> > > inital production, and the concept takes off, then they might be able
to
> > > sell out to one of the established big players and walk away smiling.
It
> > > might also drive forward the market and help create standards for
wanted
> > > peripherals such as FF pedals (inc clutch), and hydraulic***pits
that
> > > simulate motion and g-forces.

> > > As for me, I'll take a wait and see. I *hope* it all works out.

> > > Tim

>      I believe that Empire terminated them, it wasn't the other way
around.

> Joel Willstein

> --

> "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a
corner
> till the time you brake for the next turn
> , then you have enough horsepower."
> Mark Donohue

> "Dan Leach" <aow...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:agmr9p$n0o5r$1@ID-104671.news.dfncis.de...
> > Theye didnt split from empire because of any probs with capital.. They
> split
> > because empire wanted to do a crappy arcade game and the wests wanted to
> > do.. well RL
> >  dan
> > "Joel A. Willstein" <jaw...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> > news:DMBX8.18403$9d6.1063140@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > > Tim,

> > >      Your points are well taken.  The Wests don't exactly have what
one
> > > could call by any stretch of the imagination a good track record.  I
> don't
> > > see any difference between this concept and WSC other then they're
> > starting
> > > with open wheel cars verses sport cars.

> > >      They didn't have the capital to produce and complete WSC, hense
the
> > > association with Empire that ended in a messy divorce. Why should we
now
> > > believe that this time is any different?

> > >      As previously stated in another thread, I'm one of the famed &
> named
> > > "Vaporware" posters.  So until we have a workable demo which is at
min.
> > few
> > > fully funtional cars on a completely finished track, I shall continue
to
> > > label all Wests claimed efforts as Vaporware.

> > >      Let them prove us doubters wrong. All the posts claiming
otherwise
> is
> > > pure BS. They mean nothing. A demo is the only proof.

> > > Joel Willstein

> > > --

> > > "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a
> > corner
> > > till the time you brake for the next turn
> > > , then you have enough horsepower."
> > > Mark Donohue

> > > "Tim Epstein" <e...@N0ospam.pobox.com> wrote in message
> > > news:i3zX8.2968$_n5.61737@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> > > > "Mats Lofkvist" <m...@algonet.se> wrote in message
> > > > news:y2qd6ttgw5v.fsf@algonet.se...
> > > > > Looks like the concept is everything we (well, at least I)
> > > > > have wished for. It's almost scary how close it is to
> > > > > the hard core niche product many have asked for in
> > > > > this newsgroup.

> > > > > The phrase 'This is an entirely new project' makes
> > > > > me a bit worried though...

> > > > Note: this is more a business case analysis than game analysis. Stop
> > > reading
> > > > now if you'll be bored!

> > > > The great things about this potential game are the focus on the
> features
> > > > that Sim Racers want - modularity, expansion, realistic physics,
> online
> > > > play. It really comes across as a mouth watering temptation.

> > > > However, before we get too excited, I think we need to realistically
> > > > consider the business model and ask the question: Is this going to
> work?
> > > Are
> > > > West going to be able to pull this off?

> > > > I understand that West is a small (family?) outfit. Such an
> undertaking
> > as
> > > > their new proposal requires huge capital and a lot of risk. Can a
> > > simulation
> > > > that requires a lot more work than a racing game, but appeals to a
> much
> > > > smaller, niche market, really be viable?

> > > > There are some promising signs:

> > > > Pricing model. The casual gamer will pay little more than street
price
> > for
> > > > the standard game. However, the dedicated Sim Racer will pay extra
for
> > > each
> > > > option, and for new tracks. I would imagine that a full blown
package
> > with
> > > > all options and extra tracks might cost in the vicinity of US$500,
> plus
> > > > maybe a subscription for high level online racing. This is good
thing.
> > Sim
> > > > Racers have consistantly said that they would pay for the right
> > product -
> > > > consider the recent threads about people demanding a GPL2 and saying
> > that
> > > > they'd pay $500 for it!

> > > > Modular format. The creators understand that people want an evolving
> > Sim,
> > > > with new cars, new tracks, and maybe even new concepts in racing.
All
> of
> > > > this will add value to the base product and Intellecutal Property.
> > > However,
> > > > don't be surprised if unlike current sims, West control the
additions
> to
> > > > their products and require all  new cars/tracks to licenced from
them
> > > > instead of freely available from third party enthusiasts. Maybe they
> > will
> > > > encourage people by offereing a comission on new cars/tracks that
are
> > > sold.

> > > > Now for the bad news:

> > > > Vapourware?

> > > > After 2 years, WSC vanished into the  vapourware cloud it had always
> > been
> > > > in. It sees that West relied on a vapourware business model, hoping
> that
> > > VCs
> > > > or 3rd parties would take enough of an interest in their game to
> sponsor
> > > the
> > > > development. West was too small to take this risk by themselves.
> Racing
> > > > legends appears to be starting off the same way. We have been
promised
> > the
> > > > stars, but have seen nothing in concrete except a beautifully
> rendered,
> > > but
> > > > practically un-realistic racing car. Even with Moore's Law, it will
> take
> > a
> > > > decade or so before we see cars with that level detail running
around
> > the
> > > > track together in real time!

> > > > The web site comes across to me a VC marketing tool, more than a
> > realistic
> > > > "this is what is coming soon" type site.

> > > > Risk. To get this concept into production requires a huge amount of
> risk
> > > > taking. Not only does the game have to work, but there are issues of
> > > > infrastucture for hosting online racing, marketing, and finding a
top
> > > notch
> > > > distribution outfit. Something of this scale is normally only taken
on
> > by
> > > > large corporations prepared to take the gamble. Remember that
recently
> > > Papy
> > > > declined to do a GPL2, even though the Sim Racing community loved
the
> > > > original so much. At the end of the day, Papy made a business
> decision -
> > > > they decided that even a very vocal niche market wasn't enough to
> > justify
> > > > the expense of doing the game.

> > > > dot game boom?

> > > > After the dot com crashes of the last 2 years, we have seen a
> resurgance
> > > in
> > > > computer games, especially online gaming. A lot of people are saying
> its
> > > the
> > > > next "big thing". In many ways I agree. Machines are get fast enough
> to
> > > some
> > > > wonderful stuff, and broadband has really taken off, so the
> > infrastructure
> > > > is there to support a new generation of online gaming.

> > > > However, have we already forgotten the lesson of the dot com boom?
In
> > the
> > > > end, it was mostly the new comers like web van that did the
skyrocket
> > and
> > > > fell back to earth. However, the traditional players ended up
> surviving
> > > and
> > > > now prosper. I wonder if it will be the same for gaming?

> > > > Maybe I'm being a little too cynical. If West can get this game to
at
> > > least
> > > > inital production, and the concept takes off, then they might be
able
> to
> > > > sell out to one of the established big players and walk away
smiling.
> It
> > > > might also drive forward the market and help create standards for
> wanted
> > > > peripherals such as FF pedals (inc clutch), and hydraulic cockpits
> that
> > > > simulate motion and g-forces.

> > > > As for me, I'll take a wait and see. I *hope* it all works out.

> > > > Tim

> >> Dan,

> >>      I believe that Empire terminated them, it wasn't the other way
> > around.

> >> Joel Willstein

> > where did u here that?

> I think you're both probably right.
> Here's my authentic reconstruction of the conversation:

> Empire Corporate Shill (ECS) West Brothers (WB)

> ECS: So guys, this racing game. we want it to have rumble-pad
compatibility
> and a simultaneous PS2 and XBox release. Don't bother with PC for now.

> WB: Erm, we don't think a thoroughbred racing simulation will work too
well
> on a games console.

> ECS: Neither do I. Do you have the cheat codes laid out?

> WB: We're not making an arcade racing "game" for anyone, or any amount of
> money.

> ECS: You're fired.

> ;o)

> cheers
> John

> > Pricing model. The casual gamer will pay little more than street price
> > for the standard game. However, the dedicated Sim Racer will pay extra
> > for each option, and for new tracks

> And you can bet at a $500 price point, it's going to be a huge victim of
> piracy.

> Z.

> --
> Please remove my_pants when replying by email.