rec.autos.simulators

Inevitably NT2003 is going to be compared with NR2002.  So be it.  I'll do
the same here, posting what I think is better than NR2002, and what is worse
than NR2002.

First, IMHO, NT2003 does NOT suck as some have posted here.  That certainly
doesn't mean it's perfect, or even close to perfect.  I'm simply stating
that, IMHO, it does NOT suck.

What's better in NT2003 compared to NR2002
-------------------------------------------------
Tire Squeal sounds - The tire squeal sounds are really cool in NT2003 and it
sounds to me like they did a good job of rendering a true sound in relation
to what the car is actually doing.  I am not crazy about the rest of the
sounds, though.

Steering and basic controller 'feel' - Yeah, it's hard to set up.  Yeah,
there are too many damned options.  No, I don't understand what the hell
"Digital Control Settings" are either, but this much I do know.  Once you
get things tweaked right, the overall steering feel and accuracy in NT2003
is better than in NR2002.  NT2003 does not have that 'slop around center',
especially at superspeedways, that plagues NR2002.  I've not been happy with
the controller code in the NR series since it graduated to the GPL engine in
NR4.  And this may be blasphemy to some, but I appreciate the fact that,
realisic or not, the damned pull-to-the-left does not seem to exist in
NT2003.  I still contend that this 'feature' of NR2002 is more of a
hindrance than benifit, expecially to those with certain controllers.  You
can drive NT2003 with a non-feed-forceback controller, stiff center spring
or not, comfortably.  I have been extremely uncomfortable on SuperSpeedways
since NR4 came out with it's limited steering ratio settings, and with
NT2003 I finally feel that there is enough adjustment in the steering lock
to adjust it properly.

Force Feed-Back - I thing the Force Feedback in NT2003 is far better than
NR2002.  I get more out of it, and ironically it feels a lot more like the
force-feedback in GPL to me than NR2002 ever did.

Wall Contact - The results of scraping the wall in NT2003 seems far more
compelling and accurate to me than they do in NR2002.  The car 'bobbles'
along the wall properly, and the force-feedback relays more realistic
information IMHO.  I also dig the way the wheel develops an appropriately
leveled vibration when you apply the brakes.

Tire heat modeling - NT2003 seems to model tire heat and grip FAR more
accurately than NR2002 does.  In fact, warming up the tires by weaving
actually makes a difference in NT2003.  Also, you absolutely feel the tires
develop pressure and heat in NT2003 in the first few laps.  It really does
feel well modeled.

Peripheral Graphics - I'm not talking about the track surface itself.  I'll
get to that later.  I'm talking about the grandstands, people, infield,
signs, etc...  NT2003 simply does it better.

Frame Rates - NT2003 seems to be more robust in the Frame Rate department.
I'm running in 1600X1200X32 and I'm pulling close to 80 fps in testing, and
while it certainly takes a hit with a full field, it's not as big a hit as
NR2002 takes.  Call it more consistent.  I am also running the MAS patch I
found online that's supposed to improve the car modeling.

Spin/Slide Realism - I honestly believe NT2003 does this better.  I detect
NO hint of canning.  For example, if set up too loose, everyone knows it can
get real interesting coming off of turn 4 at Atlanta, with the RR losing
bite and the rear of the car coming around.  In NR2002, this usually gets
you into trouble fast because it can 'snap-spin' on you.  Yeah, you can save
it, but it usually isn't pretty.  In NT2003, the effect seems to be more
realistic to what I've felt in a real car.  The break-free is more gradual,
more in line with what should be happening.  And, you can control the car
better and recover with what feels like realistic inputs from the steering
and throttle.  It's kind of neat how you can really steer the rear of the
car with the throttle.  Can you go too far and start the "Hospital Wobble"
like you do in NR2002?  Hell yes, but it doesn't seem to be as exxagerated
in NT2003.

Modification Abilities - If F1-2002 is any indication, the customization
abilities of NT2003 are going to be interesting.

What's worse in NT2003 compared to NR2002
-------------------------------------------------
Track Graphics/Rendering - God, what a mess!  Either NT2003 is tons more
realistic, or NR2002 is.  Either way, they are not comparable in any way,
shape or form.  In a way, it looks to me like NT2003 models a worn,
post-race track while NR2002 models a clean, pre-race track.  The shading of
the tracks in NT2003, like where the braking points start, isn't even
modeled as far as I can tell.  And what IS it with this oil-slick blue tinge
on the whole racing line surface?  I call it "Shit-Fly Blue".  Some will get
that, some won't :)

Menu's - The Menu's in NT2003 are too busy, and there are too many of them.
It seems like you have to do twice the amount of work to get anything done
in NT2003 than you do in NR2002.

Replay System - I don't like it.  Not at all.  NR2002 blows NT2003 away in
this regard.

Overall Sounds - NR2002, with the exception of the Tire Squeal sounds, beats
the hell out of NT2003.  NT2003, especially at high RPM's, has a truly
annoying engine tone.  It's similar to the problems that many felt Nascar
Heat had at high RPM's.  Once you get above a certain RPM, the engine sounds
are so high-pitched, distorted and annoying, you can't hear small engine
variations that are very important to a driver.

Car Graphics - I still have to think about this one, but I think NR2002 wins
hands-down.

Players Car - I want my OWN car.  I don't want to drive someone elses under
someone elses name.  Enough said.

What I'm not sure about yet
----------------------------
Physics - Overall, I think NR2002 still wins here, but I'm not completely
decided yet.

Garage Settings - I will say this.  When you change something in NT2003, you
KNOW you change something.  I'm not saying it's accurate, but I'm saying
there is NO doubt that you changed something.  I believe I've uncovered a
few flaws in NT2003's setup modeling, but I'm not sure yet.  It might be
that I don't understand the intricities of NT2003 yet.  First, there's the
Grille Tape.  It just doesn't seem to increase the downforce, and thus
lessen the push, like I expect it to.  The fender flares are new, so I'll
pass on them for now.  Ok, here's the big one.  Either the right-front
camber in NT2003 is completely mis-modeled, or I just don't understand what
the setup screen is relating to me as far as movement-to-effect is
concerned, and here's why.  Everyone knows that at most tracks, you have to
run negative camber on the right side to keep the tire temps flat across the
tire.  Well, at Atlanta at east, it took me forever to get the inner tire
temp down out of the stratosphere and even across the tire.  When I was
done, the setting was at 2.7 degrees.  POSITIVE!  Wazzup with that ?  The
left side was 1.7 degree's.  POSITIVE again.   Either I don't understand the
screen, or something is screwed up here.

Damage Modeling - Not there yet.  Will find out when I start running with
other cars.

Effects of wear as laps go on - Not there yet, will find out more later, but
if the tire temp modeling is any sign, I think it's going to be pretty good.

That's enough for now.  Another bite to come later :)

-Larry

Todd

    JD

--
==============================
I love you sometimes, always never
==============================

There's no track editor included, but there's a number of tools floating
around the 'net that let you edit tracks very easily in ISI sims.  It's been
a while, but I think there's a tool called MAS studio that lets you do it.
I even stumbled across a site dedicated to MAS editing at one stage.  I'm
sure someone here can help..

It's not a feature they added in. It's a symptom of a realistic physics
engine

Thus - if it's absent - it says much about the physics model.

Doug

You know, I won't even get upset if the AI isn't that smart.  I just want
them to be _respectful_, unlike the dive-bombers in NR2002.

I hope to get some more time in tonight or tomorrow night.

Thurday night is Survivor and CSI night, though :)

-Larry

-Larry

-Larry

-Larry

-Larry

MadDAWG

lol - sounds like something in a school playground!!

Doug

After running Thunder for a few hours I have serious problems just
pulling out of the pits in N2002.  I was running some more laps last
night at Atlanta (smoking the AI by simply not braking until the last
possible moment near mid corner and then immediately hammering the
throttle, bah) and afterwards I wanted to directly compare it to N2002
and I couldn't even pull the car out of the pits without looping it.
The underlying physics code in NT2k3 seems solid, but the torque and
engine braking models seem way off base to me.  Most games seem to
have too much engine braking, NT2k3 doesn't really seem to model it at
all, and it seems impossible to me to generate any torque at all from
a standstill (car basically remains inert in first gear until you get
into the high RPM's, where it wants to snap-spin).  Jumping back into
N2002 the much more extreme camber-pull and ability to smoke the tires
by gunning the gas in 1st immediately smack you in the face.  In Nt2k3
the biggest places I've seen the lack of engine braking cause me
trouble is at Dover, where I can be running a great line, and have 0
throttle mid-corner and suddenly the car is into the wall, and Watkins
Glen where I'm started to adopt a slightly more extreme version of the
line the AI uses, applying a tiny bit of brake for the esses and the
outer loop.

So far while I don't find the game to be realistic in any manner (the
handling isn't awful, but the tracks are ridiculous, at least the 3
I've been to in real life and the Glen), quick dices with the AI can
be fun.  I'm not sure which sim I would give the nod to in AI, since
each series does some things well and other things not so well.
NT2k3's AI seems to be over sensitive to the aggression slider, I
still haven't been able to find a good setting between completely
docile and hammering your bumper.  I'm not sure if the cars ever have
accidents or mechanical problems since I haven't seen either myself
and if you sim races they all finish a'la Heat.  The actual driving,
as far as lines and car interaction reminds me of F1 2002 except I
haven't seen the same level of mistakes.  Occasionally I'll notice a
car getting a bit squirrely up ahead, but since cars can bounce off of
each other so easily it doesn't make much of a difference.  NR 2002
still feels, to me, more like professional WC drivers if tuned
correctly (and will be even better when the Pits release the RPY
editor and I can fix the glaring problems at Pocono).  Sometimes they
lose it mid-turn by being too aggressive, sometimes they bump each
other and can't save it, sometimes they'll hang off my rear looking
for a way past and other times they sit back waiting for a mistake.
The AI's behavior when passing being passed in Nt2k3 is heavily linked
to the aggression slider, there doesn't seem to be multiple AI states
in overtaking situations.  Either they rarely pass and move over the
second you get near them, or bang off your bumper incessantly and make
diving passes anywhere they please.  That said, NT2k3 with the
aggression set to 100% probably does a better job of simulatng the
drivers you'd find in a pickup race on WON rather than WC cars, which
seems to be what people prefer so YMMV.  I still hate that fix Papy
added a few patches ago to make the AI super-resistant to taps from
the rear.  At this point I'd give the AI a tie.  The way the AI
instantly slows when yellow is thrown in Nt2k3 is also annoying, don't
expect to see realistic multi-car pileups in tight traffic since the
AI has Nascar 1-through-3 style insta-brakes.  Also, watch your
following distance into T1 at the Glen because the AI can and will
stop on a dime.

Jason

--
Mike Grandy
www.precision-racing.com