rec.autos.simulators

> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.

> Marc.

> > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to have a big
> impact
> > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects.
> Don't
> > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has it
> > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback damping
> > coefficient
> > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback latency (secs)
> > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in N*in
giving
> > max device force

> > > Hi all,

> > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering and
> the
> > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full FFB)
> and
> > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the
> Ferrari
> > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy,
feels
> > and
> > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as shifter
> > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not bad,
except
> > for
> > > one colossal problem:

> > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my
Saitek/MS
> > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a
nice
> > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, but
> not
> > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these sorts of
> > subtle
> > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
doing.
> > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning the
> > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I just
drive
> > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the
> > surface.
> > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, but
it
> > is
> > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight.
Landing
> > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect
can
> > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across grass,
> you
> > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while going around
> > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is
> > annoying.

> > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In other
words,
> > is
> > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific boner
> that
> > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce, because the
> MS
> > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If they
could
> > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> oversight,
> > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest of
it
> > is
> > > that good.

> > > Marc.

> > > --

> > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > blame them on other computers.

> This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has it
> force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback damping
> coefficient
> force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback latency (secs)
> max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in N*in giving
> max device force

> > Hi all,

> > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering and
the
> > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full FFB)
and
> > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the
Ferrari
> > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy, feels
> and
> > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as shifter
> > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not bad, except
> for
> > one colossal problem:

> > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my Saitek/MS
> > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a nice
> > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, but
not
> > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these sorts of
> subtle
> > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were doing.
> > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning the
> > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I just drive
> > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the
> surface.
> > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, but it
> is
> > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight.  Landing
> > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect can
> > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across grass,
you
> > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while going around
> > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is
> annoying.

> > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In other words,
> is
> > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific boner
that
> > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce, because the
MS
> > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If they could
> > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
oversight,
> > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest of it
> is
> > that good.

> > Marc.

> > --

> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > blame them on other computers.

> Slot

> > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass
just
> > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty strong when
you
> > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight, there is
> zero
> > FFB.

> > Marc.

> > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to have a big
> > impact
> > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects.
> > Don't
> > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has it
> > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback damping
> > > coefficient
> > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback latency
(secs)
> > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in N*in
> giving
> > > max device force

> > > > Hi all,

> > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering
and
> > the
> > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full
FFB)
> > and
> > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the
> > Ferrari
> > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy,
> feels
> > > and
> > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as
shifter
> > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not bad,
> except
> > > for
> > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my
> Saitek/MS
> > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a
> nice
> > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface,
but
> > not
> > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these sorts of
> > > subtle
> > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
> doing.
> > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning
the
> > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I just
> drive
> > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the
> > > surface.
> > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this,
but
> it
> > > is
> > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight.
> Landing
> > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect
> can
> > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across
grass,
> > you
> > > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while going
around
> > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is
> > > annoying.

> > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In other
> words,
> > > is
> > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific
boner
> > that
> > > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce, because
the
> > MS
> > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If they
> could
> > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> > oversight,
> > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest
of
> it
> > > is
> > > > that good.

> > > > Marc.

> > > > --

> > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > > blame them on other computers.

> > Slot

> > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass
> just
> > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty strong when
> you
> > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight, there is
> > zero
> > > FFB.

> > > Marc.

> > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to have a
big
> > > impact
> > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects.
> > > Don't
> > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has it
> > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback damping
> > > > coefficient
> > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback latency
> (secs)
> > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in N*in
> > giving
> > > > max device force

> > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering
> and
> > > the
> > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full
> FFB)
> > > and
> > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the
> > > Ferrari
> > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy,
> > feels
> > > > and
> > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as
> shifter
> > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not bad,
> > except
> > > > for
> > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my
> > Saitek/MS
> > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a
> > nice
> > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface,
> but
> > > not
> > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these sorts
of
> > > > subtle
> > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
> > doing.
> > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning
> the
> > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I just
> > drive
> > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from
the
> > > > surface.
> > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this,
> but
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight.
> > Landing
> > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this
effect
> > can
> > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across
> grass,
> > > you
> > > > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while going
> around
> > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is
> > > > annoying.

> > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In other
> > words,
> > > > is
> > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific
> boner
> > > that
> > > > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce, because
> the
> > > MS
> > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If they
> > could
> > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> > > oversight,
> > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest
> of
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > that good.

> > > > > Marc.

> > > > > --

> > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > > > blame them on other computers.

> I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari
wheel.
> If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any
> other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
> syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based wheels
> better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the appropriate
> points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one
> wheel versus another.

> Marc.

> "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping right up,
> going
> > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even slightly
> > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > Try it at monza.
> > Iain
> > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > return your wheel.

> > > Slot

> > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the
grass
> > just
> > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty strong
when
> > you
> > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight, there
is
> > > zero
> > > > FFB.

> > > > Marc.

> > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to have a
> big
> > > > impact
> > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other
effects.
> > > > Don't
> > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has it
> > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback damping
> > > > > coefficient
> > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback latency
> > (secs)
> > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in N*in
> > > giving
> > > > > max device force

> > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution
steering
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full
> > FFB)
> > > > and
> > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores,
the
> > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is
sturdy,
> > > feels
> > > > > and
> > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as
> > shifter
> > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not
bad,
> > > except
> > > > > for
> > > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my
> > > Saitek/MS
> > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over
it--a
> > > nice
> > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher
surface,
> > but
> > > > not
> > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these
sorts
> of
> > > > > subtle
> > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
> > > doing.
> > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
turning
> > the
> > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I
just
> > > drive
> > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from
> the
> > > > > surface.
> > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test
this,
> > but
> > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight.
> > > Landing
> > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this
> effect
> > > can
> > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across
> > grass,
> > > > you
> > > > > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while going
> > around
> > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but
is
> > > > > annoying.

> > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In
other
> > > words,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific
> > boner
> > > > that
> > > > > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce,
because
> > the
> > > > MS
> > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If
they
> > > could
> > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> > > > oversight,
> > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the
rest
> > of
> > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > that good.

> > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > > > > blame them on other computers.

> Slot

> "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
tinkered
> > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all IForce
> wheels
> > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> effort.

> > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari
> wheel.
> > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any
> > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
> > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based
wheels
> > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
appropriate
> > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one
> > wheel versus another.

> > Marc.

> > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping right up,
> > going
> > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
slightly
> > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > Try it at monza.
> > > Iain
> > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > return your wheel.

> > > > Slot

> > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the
> grass
> > > just
> > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty strong
> when
> > > you
> > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight,
there
> is
> > > > zero
> > > > > FFB.

> > > > > Marc.

> > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to have
a
> > big
> > > > > impact
> > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other
> effects.
> > > > > Don't
> > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device has
it
> > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
damping
> > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
latency
> > > (secs)
> > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in
N*in
> > > > giving
> > > > > > max device force

> > > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution
> steering
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get
full
> > > FFB)
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores,
> the
> > > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is
> sturdy,
> > > > feels
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of
redundant
> > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as
> > > shifter
> > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not
> bad,
> > > > except
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With my
> > > > Saitek/MS
> > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over
> it--a
> > > > nice
> > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher
> surface,
> > > but
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these
> sorts
> > of
> > > > > > subtle
> > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you
were
> > > > doing.
> > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
> turning
> > > the
> > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I
> just
> > > > drive
> > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever
from
> > the
> > > > > > surface.
> > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test
> this,
> > > but
> > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving
straight.
> > > > Landing
> > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this
> > effect
> > > > can
> > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across
> > > grass,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while
going
> > > around
> > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is
missing....but
> is
> > > > > > annoying.

> > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In
> other
> > > > words,
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware
specific
> > > boner
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce,
> because
> > > the
> > > > > MS
> > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.  If
> they
> > > > could
> > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this
major
> > > > > oversight,
> > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the
> rest
> > > of
> > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > that good.

> > > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > > > > > blame them on other computers.

> Marc.

> "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is a
> > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).
> Geez,
> > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me state
> > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
coincidence.
> > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> motor,
> > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with coarser
> > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
where
> > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but
also
> > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari
> wheel
> > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
defective
> or
> > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)
should
> > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff
and
> > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
armature
> > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> through
> > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The
> > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff, counteracted,
> of
> > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a
> very
> > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
little
> > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it
> less
> > noticable).
> > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon". I
> > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act
Labs
> > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against Logitech
> > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless mouse,
> too.
> > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> several
> > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I realize
that
> > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume
that
> > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out
of
> > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. Tried
> it
> > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all the
> > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the
> thing
> > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick shifter,
> > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that if
> > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep it
> and
> > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > Slot

> > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
> tinkered
> > > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all IForce
> > wheels
> > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> > effort.

> > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari
> > wheel.
> > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy
any
> > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
> > > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based
> wheels
> > > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> appropriate
> > > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in
one
> > > wheel versus another.

> > > Marc.

> > > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping right
up,
> > > going
> > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
> slightly
> > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > > Try it at monza.
> > > > Iain
> > > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > return your wheel.

> > > > > Slot

> > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the
> > grass
> > > > just
> > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty strong
> > when
> > > > you
> > > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight,
> there
> > is
> > > > > zero
> > > > > > FFB.

> > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to
have
> a
> > > big
> > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other
> > effects.
> > > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device
has
> it
> > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
> damping
> > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
> latency
> > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque in
> N*in
> > > > > giving
> > > > > > > max device force

> > > > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution
> > steering
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get
> full
> > > > FFB)
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any
stores,
> > the
> > > > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is
> > sturdy,
> > > > > feels
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of
> redundant
> > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use
as
> > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall, not
> > bad,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With
my
> > > > > Saitek/MS
> > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over
> > it--a
> > > > > nice
> > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher
> > surface,
> > > > but
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way, these
> > sorts
> > > of
> > > > > > > subtle
> > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you
> were
> > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
> > turning
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If I
> > just
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > > surface.
> > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test
> > this,
> > > > but
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving
> straight.
> > > > > Landing
> > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this
> > > effect
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving
across
> > > > grass,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > know).  I don't even want to try to distract myself while
> going
> > > > around
> > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is
> missing....but
> > is
> > > > > > > annoying.

> > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?  In
> > other
> > > > > words,
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware
> specific
> > > > boner
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed?  It is either specific to IForce,
> > because
> > > > the
> > > > > > MS
> > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.
If
> > they
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this
> major
> > > > > > oversight,
> > > > > > > > the wheel would

> Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:8VPA4.46665$e53.1930807@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility?  Did you
> try
> > those?  Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
straight
> > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised.
> > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?

> > Marc.

> > "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is
a
> > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).
> > Geez,
> > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
state
> > > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> coincidence.
> > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> > motor,
> > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
coarser
> > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> where
> > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but
> also
> > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari
> > wheel
> > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
> defective
> > or
> > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)
> should
> > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff
> and
> > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> armature
> > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > through
> > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The
> > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
counteracted,
> > of
> > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a
> > very
> > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> little
> > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it
> > less
> > > noticable).
> > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon".
I
> > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act
> Labs
> > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against
Logitech
> > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless
mouse,
> > too.
> > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> > several
> > > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I realize
> that
> > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume
> that
> > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out
> of
> > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.
Tried
> > it
> > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all
the
> > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the
> > thing
> > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
shifter,
> > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that
if
> > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep
it
> > and
> > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > > Slot

> > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > > > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
> > tinkered
> > > > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all
IForce
> > > wheels
> > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> > > effort.

> > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
Ferrari
> > > wheel.
> > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy
> any
> > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
> > > > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based
> > wheels
> > > > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > appropriate
> > > > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in
> one
> > > > wheel versus another.

> > > > Marc.

> > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping right
> up,
> > > > going
> > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
> > slightly
> > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > > > Try it at monza.
> > > > > Iain
> > > > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > > return your wheel.

> > > > > > Slot

> > > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel
the
> > > grass
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty
strong
> > > when
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight,
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > > zero
> > > > > > > FFB.

> > > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to
> have
> > a
> > > > big
> > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other
> > > effects.
> > > > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device
> has
> > it
> > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
> > damping
> > > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
> > latency
> > > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque
in
> > N*in
> > > > > > giving
> > > > > > > > max device force

> > > > > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution
> > > steering
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to
get
> > full
> > > > > FFB)
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any
> stores,
> > > the
> > > > > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is
> > > sturdy,
> > > > > > feels
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of
> > redundant
> > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to
use
> as
> > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall,
not
> > > bad,
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With
> my
> > > > > > Saitek/MS
> > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove
over
> > > it--a
> > > > > > nice
> > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher
> > > surface,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3.  Any way,
these
> > > sorts
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > subtle
> > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what
you
> > were
> > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.  If
I
> > > just
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > surface.
> > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the

> Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:8VPA4.46665$e53.1930807@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility?  Did you
> try
> > those?  Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
straight
> > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised.
> > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?

> > Marc.

> > "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is
a
> > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).
> > Geez,
> > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
state
> > > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> coincidence.
> > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> > motor,
> > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
coarser
> > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> where
> > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but
> also
> > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari
> > wheel
> > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
> defective
> > or
> > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)
> should
> > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff
> and
> > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> armature
> > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > through
> > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The
> > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
counteracted,
> > of
> > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a
> > very
> > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> little
> > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it
> > less
> > > noticable).
> > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon".
I
> > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act
> Labs
> > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against
Logitech
> > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless
mouse,
> > too.
> > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> > several
> > > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I realize
> that
> > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume
> that
> > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out
> of
> > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.
Tried
> > it
> > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all
the
> > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the
> > thing
> > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
shifter,
> > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that
if
> > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep
it
> > and
> > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > > Slot

> > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > > > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
> > tinkered
> > > > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all
IForce
> > > wheels
> > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> > > effort.

> > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
Ferrari
> > > wheel.
> > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy
> any
> > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
> > > > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based
> > wheels
> > > > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > appropriate
> > > > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in
> one
> > > > wheel versus another.

> > > > Marc.

> > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping right
> up,
> > > > going
> > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
> > slightly
> > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > > > Try it at monza.
> > > > > Iain
> > > > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > > return your wheel.

> > > > > > Slot

> > > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel
the
> > > grass
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty
strong
> > > when
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going straight,
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > > zero
> > > > > > > FFB.

> > > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to
> have
> > a
> > > > big
> > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other
> > > effects.
> > > > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if device
> has
> > it
> > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
> > damping
> > > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
> > latency
> > > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque
in
> > N*in
> > > > > > giving
> > > > > > > > max device force

> > > > > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution
> > > steering
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to
get
> > full
> > > > > FFB)
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any
> stores,
> > > the
> > > > > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it is
> > > sturdy,
> > > > > > feels
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of
> > redundant
> > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to
use
> as
> > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall,
not
> > > bad,
> > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > one colossal problem:

> > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!  With
> my
> > > > > > Saitek/MS
> > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove
over
> > > it--a
> > > > > > nice
> > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher
> > > surface,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > wild canned

> Is the Ultimate Per4mer really an IForce wheel?  I didn't pay much
attention
> to it when it was in the stores.

> Marc.

> "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:mKQA4.796$5b5.31195@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer -
and
> > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect
> > occurs.  The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very
> > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and
the
> > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all.
> > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel.
> > Iain

> > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:8VPA4.46665$e53.1930807@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility?  Did
you
> > try
> > > those?  Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
> straight
> > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly
devised.
> > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?

> > > Marc.

> > > "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel
is
> a
> > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out
first).
> > > Geez,
> > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
> state
> > > > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> > coincidence.
> > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7
pole
> > > motor,
> > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
> coarser
> > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> > where
> > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft,
but
> > also
> > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second
Ferrari
> > > wheel
> > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
> > defective
> > > or
> > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)
> > should
> > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle
ff
> > and
> > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> > armature
> > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > > through
> > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback).
The
> > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
> counteracted,
> > > of
> > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have
a
> > > very
> > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > little
> > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes
it
> > > less
> > > > noticable).
> > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only
phenomenon".
> I
> > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely
physical
> > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the
Act
> > Labs
> > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against
> Logitech
> > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless
> mouse,
> > > too.
> > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> > > several
> > > > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I realize
> > that
> > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to
assume
> > that
> > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done
out
> > of
> > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.
> Tried
> > > it
> > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all
> the
> > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just
the
> > > thing
> > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
> shifter,
> > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is
that
> if
> > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep
> it
> > > and
> > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > > > Slot

> > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > > > > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
> > > tinkered
> > > > > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all
> IForce
> > > > wheels
> > > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just
Guillemot's
> > > > effort.

> > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
> Ferrari
> > > > wheel.
> > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would
buy
> > any
> > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a
straight-line
> > > > > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the
MS-based
> > > wheels
> > > > > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as
the
> > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > > appropriate
> > > > > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs
in
> > one
> > > > > wheel versus another.

> > > > > Marc.

> > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping
right
> > up,
> > > > > going
> > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
> > > slightly
> > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > > > > Try it at monza.
> > > > > > Iain
> > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > > > return your wheel.

> > > > > > > Slot

> > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel
> the
> > > > grass
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty
> strong
> > > > when
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going
straight,
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > > zero
> > > > > > > > FFB.

> > > > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to
> > have
> > > a
> > > > > big
> > > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some
other
> > > > effects.
> > > > > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if
device
> > has
> > > it
> > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
> > > damping
> > > > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
> > > latency
> > > > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque
> in
> > > N*in
> > > > > > > giving
> > > > > > > > > max device force

> > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$e53.1847569@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Hi all,

> > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low
resolution
> > > > steering
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to
> get
> > > full
> > > > > > FFB)
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any
> > stores,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad.  The pedal resolution is excellent, it
is
> > > > sturdy,
> > > > > > > feels
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of
> > > redundant
> > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to
> use
> > as
> > > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.  Overall,
> not

> Slot

> "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:mKQA4.796$5
> b5.31...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer -
and
> > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect
> > occurs.  The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very
> > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and
the
> > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all.
> > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel.
> > Iain

> > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:8VPA4.46665$e53.1930807@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility?  Did
you
> > try
> > > those?  Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
> straight
> > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly
devised.
> > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?

> > > Marc.

> > > "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel
is
> a
> > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out
first).
> > > Geez,
> > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
> state
> > > > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> > coincidence.
> > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7
pole
> > > motor,
> > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
> coarser
> > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> > where
> > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft,
but
> > also
> > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second
Ferrari
> > > wheel
> > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
> > defective
> > > or
> > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)
> > should
> > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle
ff
> > and
> > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> > armature
> > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > > through
> > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback).
The
> > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
> counteracted,
> > > of
> > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have
a
> > > very
> > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > little
> > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes
it
> > > less
> > > > noticable).
> > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only
phenomenon".
> I
> > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely
physical
> > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the
Act
> > Labs
> > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against
> Logitech
> > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless
> mouse,
> > > too.
> > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> > > several
> > > > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I realize
> > that
> > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to
assume
> > that
> > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done
out
> > of
> > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.
> Tried
> > > it
> > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all
> the
> > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just
the
> > > thing
> > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
> shifter,
> > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is
that
> if
> > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep
> it
> > > and
> > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > > > Slot

> > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> > > > > phenomenon.  I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only
> > > tinkered
> > > > > with a Logitech.  I only want to know whether this effects all
> IForce
> > > > wheels
> > > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just
Guillemot's
> > > > effort.

> > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
> Ferrari
> > > > wheel.
> > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would
buy
> > any
> > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a
straight-line
> > > > > syndrome.  If it is, then everyone who complains about the
MS-based
> > > wheels
> > > > > better do a bit more research.  No, they are not as "smooth" as
the
> > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > > appropriate
> > > > > points and times.  I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs
in
> > one
> > > > > wheel versus another.

> > > > > Marc.

> > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:_4HA4.74$5b5.2727@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means.  Unless you turn the damping
right
> > up,
> > > > > going
> > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even
> > > slightly
> > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
> > > > > > Try it at monza.
> > > > > > Iain
> > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$5O2.28348@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > > > return your wheel.

> > > > > > > Slot

> > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$pf4.1936779@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel
> the
> > > > grass
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel.  The effects are plenty
> strong
> > > > when
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly.  When the car is going
straight,
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > > zero
> > > > > > > > FFB.

> > > > > > > > Marc.

> > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <aub...@no.hijackers.please> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05...
> > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini.  That seems to
> > have
> > > a
> > > > > big
> > > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some
other
> > > > effects.
> > > > > > > > Don't
> > > > > > > > > ask me why.  It's weird.

> > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:

> > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1                 ; Use FF if
device
> > has
> > > it
> > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000       ; force feedback
> > > damping
> > > > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000        ; force feedback
> > > latency
> > > > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000         ; steering torque
> in
> > > N*in
> > > > > > > giving

> Thanks,

> Marc.

> P.S., Mats tests just illustrated to me that the wheel had decent response
> to low-level forces, but that they there was a big difference between the
> smallest force you could feel with the wheel still compared to if it was
> turning.  This seems to precisely mirror the situation in GPL.  I believe
> that if you could implement such a test on a MS-based wheel, you would not
> experience the disparity--the smallest forces can be felt equally
(although
> maybe not so smoothly) whether the wheel is turning or stationary.  I have
> no idea why IForce would intentionally design things this way????  Any
> ideas?

> "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:OfSA4.2035$5O2.28982@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90 first at any
> > magnitude to feel anything. Also, I wasn't convinced that the test
> actually
> > proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which of
course
> > doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is what this
> > really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) on your
> > stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings. So I used a
> > higher frequency and of course ended up feeling the waves at a much
lower
> > magnitude than he did. But that was part of his point, right? How low
you
> > can set the magnitude and still feel it (regardless of the frequency).
> > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats).
When
> > you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as each
> armature
> > pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger. Well, I won't go
on
> > about this.
> > Oh, the wheels felt almost identical. I'd bet that the Act wheel with
it's
> > slightly stronger motor would feel lower amplitudes when stationary in
> time
> > as the wheel loosens up.Turning the wheel was a little different, not
> much,
> > probably because it has a 7 pole armature where the Ferrari has 5.

> > Slot

> > "Iain Mackenzie" <iain.macken...@net.ntl.com> wrote in message
> > news:mKQA4.796$5
> > b5.31...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer -
> and
> > > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same
effect
> > > occurs.  The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are
very
> > > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and
> the
> > > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all.
> > > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari
wheel.
> > > Iain

> > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:8VPA4.46665$e53.1930807@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility?  Did
> you
> > > try
> > > > those?  Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
> > straight
> > > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly
> devised.
> > > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?

> > > > Marc.

> > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <de...@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:lbPA4.1939$5O2.28740@newsr1.maine.rr.com...
> > > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in
a
> > > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel
> is
> > a
> > > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out
> first).
> > > > Geez,
> > > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
> > state
> > > > > again. In My Opinion  the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> > > coincidence.
> > > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7
> pole
> > > > motor,
> > > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
> > coarser
> > > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure
out
> > > where
> > > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft,
> but
> > > also
> > > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second
> Ferrari
> > > > wheel
> > > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either
> > > defective
> > > > or
> > > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working
order)
> > > should
> > > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle
> ff
> > > and
> > > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> > > armature
> > > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm
rotates
> > > > through
> > > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback).
> The
> > > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
> > counteracted,
> > > > of
> > > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should
have
> a
> > > > very
> > > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > > little
> > > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act
makes
> it
> > > > less
> > > > > noticable).
> > > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only
> phenomenon".
> > I
> > > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely
> physical
> > > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the
> Act
> > > Labs
> > > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against
> > Logitech
> > > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless
> > mouse,
> > > > too.
> > > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we
have
> > > > several
> > > > > Logi products in the house.  The LWFF has definate merits. I
realize
> > > that
> > > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to
> assume
> > > that
> > > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done
> out
> > > of
> > > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.
> > Tried
> > > > it
> > > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at
all
> > the
> > > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just
> the
> > > > thing
> > > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
> > shifter,
> > > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is
> that
> > if
> > > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or
keep
> > it
> > > > and
> > > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.

> > > > > Slot

> > > > > "Marc Collins" <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:8nNA4.79532$pf4.1977879@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a