rec.autos.simulators

by **Marc Collin** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that
F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After
playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right.

By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track
from the 98 season for free.

Summary:

Menus: as annoying as ever.

Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved
YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the
demo.

Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem
as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me
except the replacement of real ads with fake ones.

Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original
was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which
would be unacceptable.

Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been
improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power
applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the
ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address
the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism
of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell.

AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been
improved.

Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The
new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and
racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1.

I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft
provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth a
full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money
than sense.

For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming
the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly.
Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do
so much work is another question.

In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had
a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the
next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable
side-step.

Marc.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
****************************************************************************

by **spammenotmrace** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Exactly what I was thinking, F1RS2 appears to be nothing
more than all the things F1RS should have been in the first
place, but without the proper teams and sponsors. I paid
$49.99 for F1RS earlier this year, and I would be agreeable
with a $15.00 upgrade price, but I will not pay another
$49.99 for this. If there is no offer to upgrade those who
paid full price for F1RS, I will get it without paying. So
Ubisoft, the choice is yours, take my $15.00, or get
nothing, it's up to you.

> I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that
> F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After
> playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right.

> By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track
> from the 98 season for free.

> Summary:

> Menus: as annoying as ever.

> Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved
> YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the
> demo.

> Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem
> as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me
> except the replacement of real ads with fake ones.

> Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original
> was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which
> would be unacceptable.

> Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been
> improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power
> applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the
> ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address
> the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism
> of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell.

> AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been
> improved.

> Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The
> new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and
> racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1.

> I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft
> provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth a
> full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money
> than sense.

> For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming
> the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly quickly.
> Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will do
> so much work is another question.

> In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft had
> a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the
> next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable
> side-step.

> Marc.

> --
> ****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins

> "Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
> ****************************************************************************

by **Iain Mackenzi** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Marc,
These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are
looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you have
missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor
imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to
www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who
knows what they are talking about.
It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be a
big improvement on the best F1 sim out there.
Iain

>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that
>F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After
>playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right.

>By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track
>from the 98 season for free.

>Summary:

>Menus: as annoying as ever.

>Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved
>YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run the
>demo.

>Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem
>as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me
>except the replacement of real ads with fake ones.

>Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original
>was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category, which
>would be unacceptable.

>Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been
>improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power
>applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the
>ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address
>the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism
>of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell.

>AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been
>improved.

>Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The
>new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and
>racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1.

>I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft
>provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth
a
>full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more money
>than sense.

>For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming
>the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly
quickly.
>Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will
do
>so much work is another question.

>In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft
had
>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the
>next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat laughable
>side-step.

>Marc.

>--
>***************************************************************************
*
>Marc Collins

>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
>***************************************************************************
*

by **AKhan420** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Man you guys are such losers. I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was
released. It could also be viewed as World Circuit Version 1.1., which didn't
have rain, and still had terrible graphics. Remember the invisible pit wall in
Australia?

How the hell can you call MGP version 1.1 of F1RS, when Ubisoft patched the
original ~ 6 times????

Now refresh my memeory, how many times has Microprose
patched GP2???

We have only seen 1/10th of the full game, without the scenario and career
modes which are completely new, not to mention the retro mode, yet you guys
still complain.

Somehow I have a feeling that if Crammond releases another simulation that is
poorly coded, you guys will hail it as the best thing since sliced bread.

No matter what Ubisoft does, or they intensely they support their products,
there is just no pleasing some people.

So do us all a favour, and don't buy the %%$$ game. Your
negativity is not needed.

by **Frank Koeni** » Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:00

>Summary:

>Menus: as annoying as ever.

At least in the demo they are MUCH quicker. Also, the tracks load much
quicker. I don't think the sole fact that the layout and look is the same
makes them 'annoying as ever.' Their speed has increased and that makes them
much more functional.

Fair enough.

I was running in Direct3d and could never get the Monaco track to run
reliably with the TV screens working. This is now fixed. Also, look at
Austria. The graphics are positively stunning. Theres little to be desired
from this aspect of the demo.

This was and is the weak point of both F1RS and MGPRS. But, it has improved
more than 10%. The sound in the demo is far more sensitive and responsive to
driver input. From the screeching tires that now give the racer enough
feedback to KNOW you're driving on the edge, to the engine sound which
sounds better than F1RS but which still has a synthesized quality to it,
this aspect has greatly increased the feel of the car. Yes the engine sound
and gear box could use some real samples to take this game to the next
level. But if you listen to the in-car footage from a F1 telecast (of the
Williams in particular) the engine sound isn't that far from the mark from
the drivers perspective. It still has a very plastic quality to it and that
could definitely be improved.

I disagree. The physics have been greatly improved in that you can now
control a spin much more easily than in F1RS. This combined with the sound
makes it much easier to drive on the edge without fear of loosing grip and
going into an uncontrollable spin. Now you know you have a good chance of
saving it which is much more realistic.

One thing I will agree on, the interaction between two cars when they touch
has taken a step down from F1RS. On a few occasions I bumped wheels with an
AI car and the collision caused the corner of the AI car to bounce a foot
off the ground. This however did not seem to cause much of a problem as the
AI car regained control very quickly and unrealistically. A real F1 car
would be in the gravel in seconds after that kind of contact. In this
respect, there was an almost arcade quality to the physics. Perhaps if
damage was set to Realistic instead of Intermediate as it is in the demo?
Still, I can't recall seeing anything like the collision physics in
Intermediate damage in F1RS as there is in the demo.

With only seven laps it was hard to tell. Especially since there was a
fictional lineup, we can't compare the driving styles of the F1RS Alesi (for
example) to the MGPRS implementation. Still some cars did seem more
agressive than others, so there is still hope for a realistic recreation of
F1 driver personalities once the users are able to put in the driver's
names.

Call it F1RS 1.1, MGPRS or whatever. Judging from this demo, I believe this
game will once again raise the state of the art in racing sims. $10 to $15?
I got so much enjoyment driving at Austria with the demo that I'd have no
problem paying $50 for the new game. For me the top priority is driving feel
and that has been improved enough to justify $50 by itself.

As far as being willing to spend more than $15 meaning that I have more
money than sense, your way off base. Unlike you, I get a great deal of
enjoyment from driving a really good sim. If I look back at all of the hours
I've played GP2 or F1RS, the cost of $50 is almost trivial. I'll spend $50
and get many more hours of enjoyment from not only rediscovering the
existing tracks with the new graphics, AI, and physics, but I'll have the
career mode and the new implementation of on-line play to enjoy. If all this
is worth to you is $10 or $15, racing sims must either be a trivial passtime
or you must have the earning capacity of a rickshaw driver.

Bottom line: Judging from the demo, is the new version a significant overall
improvement?

Yes.

Is there room for further improvement?

Yes.

Is it worth the cost of buying the product all over again to get these
improvements?

For any real fan of racing sims, Yes.

by **Iain Mackenzi** » Mon, 28 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I think you'll find that is precisely what I was saying! No complaints from
me whatsoever, I'm desparately looking forward to MGP. It's unfounded
negative comments from people like Marc Collins that really get to me, but
of course it gets to you to!
By the way, Ubi patched F1RS nine times not six. the fact that GP2 was not
patched was a great disappointment to a lot of people, and it is a credit to
Ubi that they are prepared to support their product long after release.
Iain

>Man you guys are such losers. I did not see anybody complain when Gp2 was
>released. It could also be viewed as World Circuit Version 1.1., which
didn't
>have rain, and still had terrible graphics. Remember the invisible pit
wall in
>Australia?

>How the hell can you call MGP version 1.1 of F1RS, when Ubisoft patched the
>original ~ 6 times????

>Now refresh my memeory, how many times has Microprose
>patched GP2???

>We have only seen 1/10th of the full game, without the scenario and career
>modes which are completely new, not to mention the retro mode, yet you guys
>still complain.

>Somehow I have a feeling that if Crammond releases another simulation that
is
>poorly coded, you guys will hail it as the best thing since sliced bread.

>No matter what Ubisoft does, or they intensely they support their products,
>there is just no pleasing some people.

>So do us all a favour, and don't buy the %%$$ game. Your
>negativity is not needed.

by **Marc Collin** » Mon, 28 Sep 1998 04:00:00

The comments are not reckless at all.

I hope that you are right that the final version is vastly improved over the
demo...but then is UbiSoft so stupid that they haven't learned their lesson
about releasing demos that don't reflect the final product. I thought we
all had enough of that with F1RS.

Compare the new demo to driving with a well-balanced set-up (one of Guy
Cote's, for example) on F1RS--there is almost no difference other than the
increased grip and throttle response--neither of which requires any change
to the physics model. They could patch those two things into F1RS easily.

Demos are adverti***ts. Why would I want to upgrade from F1RS based on
this demo.? If I have to read (typically biased) evaluations from fans on
fan-based web sites to get a true sense of what the new sim. will be like,
everyone at UbiSoft responsible for the demo and the release of the demo
should be fired immediately.

Marc.

>Marc,
>These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are
>looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you have
>missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor
>imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to
>www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who
>knows what they are talking about.
>It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be
a
>big improvement on the best F1 sim out there.
>Iain

>>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that
>>F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After
>>playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right.

>>By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing track
>>from the 98 season for free.

>>Summary:

>>Menus: as annoying as ever.

>>Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved
>>YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run
the
>>demo.

>>Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a problem
>>as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me
>>except the replacement of real ads with fake ones.

>>Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the original
>>was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category,
which
>>would be unacceptable.

>>Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been
>>improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power
>>applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the
>>ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address
>>the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the realism
>>of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell.

>>AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been
>>improved.

>>Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The
>>new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and
>>racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1.

>>I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft
>>provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is worth
>a
>>full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more
money
>>than sense.

>>For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this one...assuming
>>the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly
>quickly.
>>Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will
>do
>>so much work is another question.

>>In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft
>had
>>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with the
>>next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat
laughable
>>side-step.

>>Marc.

>>--
>>**************************************************************************
*
>*
>>Marc Collins

>>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
>>**************************************************************************
*
>*

by **Iain Mackenzi** » Mon, 28 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I think you'll find quite a lot of differences Marc, particularly in the way
that the other cars behave, the fluidity of the framerate, the speed of the
menus, track loading, etc. etc. It is impossible to guage the driving
performance until we see the final version because of setups etc.
An unrepresentative demo of F1RS didn't do Ubi any harm at all - F1RS was
one of the biggest selling sims in the history of PCs!
Just please stop moaning, and wait for the full product in all its 1024x768
glory!
Iain

>The comments are not reckless at all.

>I hope that you are right that the final version is vastly improved over
the
>demo...but then is UbiSoft so stupid that they haven't learned their lesson
>about releasing demos that don't reflect the final product. I thought we
>all had enough of that with F1RS.

>Compare the new demo to driving with a well-balanced set-up (one of Guy
>Cote's, for example) on F1RS--there is almost no difference other than the
>increased grip and throttle response--neither of which requires any change
>to the physics model. They could patch those two things into F1RS easily.

>Demos are adverti***ts. Why would I want to upgrade from F1RS based on
>this demo.? If I have to read (typically biased) evaluations from fans on
>fan-based web sites to get a true sense of what the new sim. will be like,
>everyone at UbiSoft responsible for the demo and the release of the demo
>should be fired immediately.

>Marc.

>>Marc,
>>These are very reckless comments on your part. Remember, that you are
>>looking at a DEMO here. There are a lot of subtle differences that you
have
>>missed, but that is not the point, the demo of F1RS was a very poor
>>imitation of the full game, so MGP will be the same. Go to
>>www.f1racingsim.com to see a review of the latest beta from someone who
>>knows what they are talking about.
>>It really is very silly to make these instant judgements on what should be
>a
>>big improvement on the best F1 sim out there.
>>Iain

>>>I thought our friend ymenard was joking or exaggerating when he said that
>>>F1RS2 would be just F1RS 1 v. 1.1 (but at full price, of course). After
>>>playing the English demo, I am afraid he was right.

>>>By the way, Ubisoft, thanks for providing us F1RS owners the missing
track
>>>from the 98 season for free.

>>>Summary:

>>>Menus: as annoying as ever.

>>>Demo: haven't companies learned to allow setting changes to be saved
>>>YET!!!!!! We don't want to have to re-set everything every time we run
>the
>>>demo.

>>>Graphics: may as well be identical to the original--which is not a
problem
>>>as far as I am concerned, but a trip around Monaco reveals nothing to me
>>>except the replacement of real ads with fake ones.

>>>Sounds: Horrid. About 10% better than the original, but then the
original
>>>was horrid, so it still hasn't made it into the next higher category,
>which
>>>would be unacceptable.

>>>Physics: I would defy anyone to describe how the physics model has been
>>>improved. The dynamics have been changed--there is now much more power
>>>applied through the rear wheels at lower pedal pressure (to address the
>>>ridiculous lack of same in the original), more cornering grip (to address
>>>the lack of same in the original), and a few other tweaks, but the
realism
>>>of the physics has not been improved one iota as far as I can tell.

>>>AI: Unchanged from what I can experience. Please tell me what has been
>>>improved.

>>>Summary: Several excellent tweaks based on user feedback/complaints. The
>>>new career mode, etc. is likely a good thing, too. As far as driving and
>>>racing is concerned, this is nothing more than F1RS 1.1.

>>>I would be happy to pay $10 or $15 to upgrade...only because UbiSoft
>>>provided a number of free patches already. If anyone thinks this is
worth
>>a
>>>full game price (assuming you already have F1RS), then they have more
>money
>>>than sense.

>>>For those who don't have F1RS, definitely wait and get this
one...assuming
>>>the fans will recreate all the actual teams and environments fairly
>>quickly.
>>>Although why UbiSoft should be getting all the benefit when the fans will
>>do
>>>so much work is another question.

>>>In conclusion, a major disappointment and dropping of the ball...UbiSoft
>>had
>>>a very impressive product with F1RS and it was time to move ahead with
the
>>>next level of sophistication and seriousness. This is a somewhat
>laughable
>>>side-step.

>>>Marc.

>>>--
>>>*************************************************************************
*
>*
>>*
>>>Marc Collins

>>>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
>>>*************************************************************************
*
>*
>>*

by **rob** » Mon, 28 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Well, you seem to be getting a lot of negative comments here, Marc,
but I'm with you on the 'upgrade' idea. So long as the game is
75% recycled, it would seem that giving it a facelift would be less
difficult (expensive) than starting over. Ubisoft is to be credited for
keeping a successful title up to date but for those who have already
paid for the game's development once, shouldn't they now have
the option of just paying for the additional work done to it since then?
I think the attitude that "I love sims so much it's worth it to me" is too
generous. I don't expect to be gouged when buying water, even
though I can't live without it!

rob.

<snip>

>Marc.

>--
>***************************************************************************
*
>Marc Collins

>"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
>***************************************************************************
*

by **Lorne Glustei** » Tue, 29 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I agree ===>100%<=== !!!!!!!!!
Great post.......I think it`s time the people that buy the 1st ver
(that allows for a 2nd ver) get rewarded in some way....
Instead of getting a slap in the face.

Lorne