rec.autos.simulators

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

Marc Collin

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Marc Collin » Tue, 17 Nov 1998 04:00:00

A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS.  Yes,
those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct.

I am an F1RS fan for the following reasons.  The attempt at realism is
laudable.  They didn't always make it, but there was an honest attempt to
make this a real sim.  The patches...although it was frustrating that so
many patches were required, UbiSoft did at least release patches that seemed
to be in response to user requests (the glue-like grass, for example).  The
graphics are top-notch (as good as I need, anyway) and assuming you have a
3dfx card, do not need a supercomputer to get great frame rates.  The
default set-ups are pathetic, but thanks to people like Guy Cote some
terrific set-ups were done that transform the handling of the cars
tremendously.  The original sounds of the engine and shifting are horrid,
but again, fans to the rescue.

The menu system is incredibly badly designed and documented, canned spins
(or at least canned spin processes) are used, the controller support was not
what it should be, the game won't remember set-ups from one session to
another, the throttle control is detached from reality...i.e., you can rev
to 12,000 r.p.m. and drop the car into first gear and the revs will drop
immediately to idle and then progress upward as though you were not already
revving the snot out of the engine.  This is crucial (and very, very bad)
not so much for the one-time drop into first gear at a start but because
this is the way all gear shifts are handled.  The engine's torque and power
are not modelled in a dynamic fashion, but in a static one instead (I could
spend a lot of time explaining this, but those of you who care will likely
already know lots about it).  The grip levels on pavement are too low, on
grass too high (still, after the patches) and on wet pavement too low.
Sound support has always been a problem.

Nevertheless, all in all, you could have a lot of fun with F1RS...and hope
that the major physics flaws could some day be addressed......which brings
us to MGPRS2.

The graphics are, for all intents and purposes identical to F1RS except that
there is now support for higher resolutions.  Fine...I don't really care as
640x480 looks fine to me as they have styled the graphics quite well and
they give a good sense of speed.

The sound support is worse than in F1RS, if this is possible.  More problems
with more sound cards.  And the sounds themselves, already horribly
inadequate in F1RS are actually worse in MGPRS2.  There is a debate as to
whether the quiet little electric motor-like buzzing and click-ratchet
shifting is actually what you would hear in a real F1 car wearing a real F1
regulation helmet.  I only know what the cars sound like from the outside
and this ain't it.  If in fact that's all you can hear of the monstrous
motor a few centimetres behind your head, then how on earth could you hear
other cars or the sound of your car driving on the grass or the tires
squealing.  The grass (rippling-crunching) is about triple the volume of the
engine.

You can adjust all of the volumes of the individual sounds (with the Sound
Editor supplied--in French language (in the UK version of the game)) and the
overall sound levels (engine versus other sounds versus announcer's
messages), but the original sound adjustments and several of the samples are
ridiculously inadequate.  Personally, I am using the same third-party engine
and shift sounds that I used for F1RS.  Whether I use these, or the original
sound file (pack), I get sound cutting-out at points where there is supposed
to be echoing (close to an enclosed area) and I cannot hear the opponents
cars at all.  (For reference, I had the same problem of sound cutting out on
F1RS after switching from a SB AWE32 to a SB PCI128, but the latest driver
release from CL fixed that--not so in MGPRS2.)

The physics have NOT been updated at all--just tweaked a bit in a manner
that could have been done easily in a patch to F1RS.  The grip levels have
been increased dramatically to what "seems" to be a more natural or
realistic level.  The default set-ups are now usable, so you can actually
drive the tracks without doing hours of set-up first.  The throttle seems 20
times more sensitive than in F1RS, but unfortunately, it is just a very
cheap trick...

The throttle sensitivity is now adjusted by gear.  If you are in neutral or
in 6th gear, the normal 100% range of throttle is available.  The range
steps down by gear, so that by the time you reach first gear you have 100%
of the throttle sensitivity crammed into about 10% of the throttle movement.
In other words, do anything other than barely touching the throttle from
launch and you will be doing a full-throttle tire-burning exercise in
futility.  This is even more unrealistic than the original F1RS, though if
you are a moron, it may give you the illusion that there is more power
readily available in first gear than in the taller gears.  It results in
maximum throttle acceleration requiring a series of progressively deeper
throttle movements as you go up through the gears.  This may suit some
digital controllers, but I have no idea who would think it was suitable for
an analogue controller or who would think it was an improvement over the old
system.

The menus seem to run a wee bit faster (and are still too slow, but not
agonizingly and ridiculously slow like the ones in F1RS), but the same
illogical and confusing design was used.  It seems as though they just
couldn't be bothered updating anything that actually required real work.  No
one--not even the most ardent F1RS fans, liked the menu system.  The game
does remember what set-up you were using (thank goodness), but there is no
"default" setting to get back to the original easily.

The retro-mode had some possibilities, but it was obviously not given the
attention and polish that would be necessary to make it a great part of the
game.  I love the fake names for the teams...at least someone here had a
sense of humour.  Instead of Team One, Two, etc. that are used in the
regular part of the game to replace the real names that are no longer
licensed, creative names like Team Beta Julietta are used.  Now I wonder
which famous Italian car company that would represent!!! :)

Only one track and the same ridiculously unimproved throttle physics and a
lack of grip render the retro mode a bust.  They actually have four cars
with four distinct and interesting motor sounds and four distinct and
accurate***pits (and four names that don't require too much knowledge to
figure-out), but they could not come up with anything better for sounds and
***pits in the main part of the game??????

On the subject of the lack of licensing, it really is a non-starter for all
of us 'net-types since all of the tracks and cars and***pits have already
been re-done by fans, so you can have your up-to-date details in the game.
The question for me is why are we paying  full price for this?

The AI?  I haven't managed to race much yet--mostly because I cannot hear my
opponents and the tiny mirrors are wholly inadequate to use as the only
basis to place opponents.  UbiSoft claim a big improvement in AI, but quite
frankly, I would fall out of my chair if it was anything other than a minor
improvement.  Those of you in the know please let us know what the actual
changes are to the AI.

Full price for a patch....that you have to rely on the good works and
generosity of fellow gamers just to get back to the level of accuracy of
F1RS!!!!!!  Sorry, in my mind this is a gross rip-off, a huge misstep by
UbiSoft and that's why I am writing this post.

Many, many months passed between v. 1.09 of F1RS and the release of MGPRS2.
The game is a minor update (and in some ways a retrograde step) to F1RS.
How can it have as many or more bugs related to the main part of the game as
the original F1RS did???  It is unbelievable.  Patch support, so far, is
worse than for F1RS.

Take it or leave it...it's up to you.  If you own F1RS I would highly not
recommend buying MGPRS2.  If you don't own it, then I would highly recommend
waiting until enough patching is done to demonstrate that this title is not
going to be orphaned in its current bug-ridden state.  And, then, if the
bugs are fixed, buy it if you like modern F1 sims. and can live with a
physics model that is so far behind GPL (and apparently not an advance over
F1RS) it will make your car spin...at all the wrong times and for all the
wrong reasons.

Marc.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
           General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864
****************************************************************************

Roo

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Roo » Tue, 17 Nov 1998 04:00:00

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins"


>Full price for a patch....that you have to rely on the good works and
>generosity of fellow gamers just to get back to the level of accuracy of
>F1RS!!!!!!  Sorry, in my mind this is a gross rip-off, a huge misstep by
>UbiSoft and that's why I am writing this post.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Poland the game
sells for $29 aprox. and this sure is not a "full price".
David Mast

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by David Mast » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


>A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS.  Yes,
>those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct.

Whether "patch" or not is an incendiary topic.  On it, I'll just say that it
adds more than one would demand from a patch, but certainly doesn't appear to
be a major rewrite.  Perhaps Ubisoft plans to use the strategy of a few other
companies in yearly updates.   This is most possible with sports sims where a
new year brings new players, stats, teams.  Of course, here it is sort of moot
due to the lack of licensing, thus no-names.  Anyway, to some of your
points...

Note that at least backing off the pedal while in gear now doesn't sound like
you've gone to zero revs instantly.

Hmmm, I care, but I admit to not knowing what you refer to.

okay...

I agree, though it does look like higher texture bitmaps might have been used?

Yes in that I have probs akin to the initial F1RS release, no in the
aforementioned improvement in the off-throttle sound.  Also, did they
(slightly) improve the behind-car view's sound?

Have they been??  I haven't noticed.  My brakes lock all too readily.  I have
to back off the 55/45 bias to about 50/50 (and F1RS used 60/40!).

I'm not sure of this.  By fiddling with the gear ratios, admittedly making
them too tall, I get less tendency to spin with throttle application.
But yes, the damned thing is sensitive!

Of course, you know that there isn't more power in any gear, but the importan

Hmm, maybe I should start feeling insulted :-)
Of course, you know that there isn't more power in any gear, but the important
factor, torque at the wheel, is higher in lower gears.

Probably at least somewhat true being that full application in the lower gears
would result in useless wheelspin.  But I'll go back and see if I agree with
your ~10% travel point.

Yes, here it shows that it, obviously, isn't a major rewrite.

If you hit one of the two buttons to the right of the prerace <--> race
buttons, you get the default setups for that screen, or all setups.

What they did do for us, is set the basic performance parameters.  Personally,
I'd MUCH rather these be adjustable too and I'm lobbying for it.  Of course,
they might see that as a potentially lost market for next year's version, and
the next...  Me, I won't buy it again without a major update.  So here, I do
agree with your main point.

I hear them (but I use the canned sounds).  And I have been able to play games
with the opponents, blocking them and such, using the (probably realistic)
tiny mirrors.

I'm not in the know, just going by a couple of races.  They are very
aggressive in passing you in expert mode, poor in amateur.  I haven't seen
the same continuous futile passing attempts resulting in riding the curbs
as I saw with F1RS.  Then again, alas too much like the real thing, I see
little passing.  They added blue flagging.  It has a couple of slight probs,
but overall a very nice addition.  Just passing on observations, not claiming
to evaluate the overall AI improvement.

I haven't seen the ridiculously large initial fuel loads carried where they
then pitted anyway for tires.

Which makes expecting a real rewrite optimistic.

I'd say overall a plus, but not as big to me as some others claim.

I don't understand why they have run into similar sound probs.

David Mast

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by David Mast » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Replying to my previous reply :-)





>>The throttle sensitivity is now adjusted by gear.  If you are in neutral or
>>in 6th gear, the normal 100% range of throttle is available.  The range
>>steps down by gear, so that by the time you reach first gear you have 100%
>>of the throttle sensitivity crammed into about 10% of the throttle movement.

>I'm not sure of this.  By fiddling with the gear ratios, admittedly making
>them too tall, I get less tendency to spin with throttle application.

Okay, I went back and checked.  I disagree with your statement.  Yes, if you
go to more than about 1/2 throttle in first gear, and somewhat more throttle
in second, your tires slip.  But I think it is a reasonable torque effect, not
some stick sensitivity game.  For instance, as I mentioned, if I change the
1st and 2nd gear ratios, the problem is ameliorated.  Second, if I
simultaneoulsy apply brake, I find that I can adjust the speed and accel in
the latter stages of throttle application in these gears.  This indicates the
controller still has authority at near max pedal.

The part I was replying to got munched by my newsreader.  It was in response
to Mark saying:

And, as above, I do not agree at all.

I also should mention that the game feels smoother in control to me.  While
still a bit stiff and "on rails" feeling, it is better than F1RS.  Major?  
Perhaps not, but one of the reasons I stopped playing the first.

But still, if someone asked if they should get this after having F1RS, I'd
express some caution.  To me, it is better.  But not anything akin to the
usual improvement one sees in the next gen of a product.  Nowhere near.

Te

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Te » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins"


>A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS.  Yes,
>those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct.

<lengthy elaborations snipped>

Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not.
IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I
would expect from a 'patch'. However from what you wrote it looks like
MGP is actually worse than F1RS what it is clearly not, it just hasn't
changed much in certain areas but some important things have been
undoubtly improved - such as the physics (or call it car behaviour if
you want) together with setup techniques, i.e no more full front wing
combined with zero rearwing to achieve neutral carbalance and similar
nonsense :)...

--

Tel
                              http://members.xoom.com/Tel33
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
a.k.a. Holger Bachert                    F1RS Cars & Design

Michae

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Michae » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

<completely valid criticisms snipped>

I agree totally - after playing GPL, I could never go back and play MGP RS2.
I just hope GP3 lives up to the hype for those who want an up-to-date F1
sim. Me, I'm not bothered. Roll on GPL2.

- Michael

Ronald Stoeh

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Ronald Stoeh » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


> A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS.  Yes,
> those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct.

A patch? I don't think there were bigger enhancements between N1/2 or
ICR1/2.
If MGPR should have been a patch, we wouldn't see any patches anymore.

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Ronald Stoeh

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Ronald Stoeh » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


> <completely valid criticisms snipped>

> I agree totally - after playing GPL, I could never go back and play MGP RS2.
> I just hope GP3 lives up to the hype for those who want an up-to-date F1
> sim. Me, I'm not bothered. Roll on GPL2.

Isn't your logic a little messed up? MGPR looses against GPL in the
physics
department, but to say that for a great sim of modern F1 we have to wait
for GP3, that's just nonsense.

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Michae

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Michae » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

that's just >nonsense

That was just an example - can you see a "great sim of modern F1" coming
from anywhere else?

- Michael

Marc Collin

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Marc Collin » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

I agree the set-up area is much better.  But my point for those in this
group, who tend to care about these sorts of things (witness the gazillion
GPL messages), is that the physics have not been improved--just changed.  If
I could get Papy to re-jig the grip levels and so forth in ICR2 or N2, I
would not call that improved physics the way I call GPL improved physics.
One is a change, perhaps for the better, the other is an improvement or an
advancement.

Marc.


>On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:27:19 -0500, "Marc Collins"

>>A sad a pathetic joke because it is nothing more than a patch to F1RS.
Yes,
>>those of us who thought that based on the demo are correct.

><lengthy elaborations snipped>

>Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not.
>IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I
>would expect from a 'patch'. However from what you wrote it looks like
>MGP is actually worse than F1RS what it is clearly not, it just hasn't
>changed much in certain areas but some important things have been
>undoubtly improved - such as the physics (or call it car behaviour if
>you want) together with setup techniques, i.e no more full front wing
>combined with zero rearwing to achieve neutral carbalance and similar
>nonsense :)...

>--

>Tel
>                              http://members.xoom.com/Tel33
>                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>a.k.a. Holger Bachert                    F1RS Cars & Design


Marc Collin

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Marc Collin » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00


>Replying to my previous reply :-)

How far down do you have to hold the accelerator to max-out the revs. in
first gear?  How far down in 4th gear?  In 6th gear?  Is there any car on
earth that works the way MGPRS2 does?  Is there any other driving sim. that
does it this way?

I am not saying it is undriveable or terrible--it's just stupid and
unnecessary when a much more straightforward approach would work better and
be more "natural."

Marc.

Tor

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Tor » Wed, 18 Nov 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:55:18 -0500, "Marc Collins"


>I agree the set-up area is much better.  But my point for those in this
>group, who tend to care about these sorts of things (witness the gazillion
>GPL messages), is that the physics have not been improved--just changed.  If
>I could get Papy to re-jig the grip levels and so forth in ICR2 or N2, I
>would not call that improved physics the way I call GPL improved physics.
>One is a change, perhaps for the better, the other is an improvement or an
>advancement.

You know, whether changes are an improvement or not is kinda matter of
taste :)... But fact is, the physics have been changed a lot, not just
by manipulating the overall grip level. Try playing around with the
toe-in, toe-out settings and you'll notice the difference. Sure it's
not as drastical a change as Papyrus did with GPL, thank God :)

--

Tel
                              http://members.xoom.com/Tel33
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
a.k.a. Holger Bachert                    F1RS Cars & Design

Cossi

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by Cossi » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00



 not everyone wants to drive those beat up ol` grand prix car, some people
prefer a good tank to protect ourselves

David G Fishe

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by David G Fishe » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00

According to Ubi Soft, the physics have been improved and I felt it before I
hit the first turn so I'm not sure about Marc's comments.  Feels like a
completely different sim from F1RS to me. I'm also not having the controller
sensitivity problems (10%) he describes. The power comes on much smoother
than F1RS. He's also having sound problems so maybe it's something with the
way his system and the game work together.

Marc, if you'd like, I have a setup for Monza for  which enables me to exit
the chicanes in first gear with no wheel spin at all. If I get just a chirp
or two, I feel like I hit it just right. I have some other setups which are
pretty good too. I'll send it on if you're interested and if you are still
getting too much wheelspin, then at least you could start isolating the
cause of your problems.

David G Fisher


>Summed up, the question is whether it's worth to pay for it or not.
>IMO it definately is, since the amount of changes far exceeds what I
>would expect from a 'patch'

David G Fishe

Monaco Grand Prix RS2 A sad and pathetic joke...

by David G Fishe » Thu, 19 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Tel

Just wanted to say your car set is fantastic. Thanks.

David G Fisher


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.