rec.autos.simulators

Thanks for the attempted help--please send me a good set-up if you have
one--but I am not having any problems with excessive wheel spin.  I can
control the car just fine and agree that at first glance/first drive MGPRS2
seems like a big improvement over F1RS.  That is, until you realise that the
physics haven't been improved at all, but just tweaked to give the illusion
of...something.  Real car manufacturers do this too.  My Honda Accord had
about 75% of the power delivery/r.p.m.'s come on in the first third to half
of the pedal movement.  My Audi Quattro had a completely linear set-up--push
the pedal half way, get half of the r.p.m.'s.  It makes the car feel duller
or less sprightly at first, but man is it way better over the long run to
not be "tricked" into thinking you have more power left in the last half of
the pedal travel than you really do.

Do you experience what I do with gearing and r.p.m.'s on MGPRS2?  When (in
pedal travel %) do you hit maximum r.p.m.'s in first gear?  Do you think
that is appropriate or realistic?  Yes, at first the cars seem more
responsive and powerful than F1RS, but it is an illusion.

The substantially greater cornering grip they dialled-in is a big
improvement, I think, but as I have said, they could have easily made one or
both of these changes to F1RS in any one of the many patches they released
for that title.

Marc.

Replying a few days late as I was out of town...

I don't know if any car is quite as extreme in this as portrayed in MGPRS2,
but I would guess so.  Further, to obviously a lesser extent, I believe all
cars are so, certainly mine is.  Addressing your point a few ways:

First, observationally.  I got in my '94 Integra and gave it about 1/4-1/3
throttle travel.  Revs slowly build up in 1st gear to redline.  If I do it in
second, maybe 5000 rpm; third, less; 6th, about 3000.  Not as extreme as MGP
certainly.  But then again, I have 142 hp in a 2650 lb car.  They've got 700+
in what, a 1200 lb car?

Second, with physics.  Let's assume that at a certain throttle pedal position,
you get a certain fuel flow per rev, ie a certain torque level.  Now, this
probably isn't quite accurate, but probably a good first order assumption? (If
you want, I can check this with the fuel injection guys I work with).  That's
engine torque.  It is multiplied by the gear ratio to give wheel torque.  
Since your wheel has a fixed diameter, it translates to a certain wheel force.
In a lower gear, you have more multiplication, thus a greate force to the
road.  Further you have less resistance force.  Thus greater accel, ie
tendencancy to build revs.  Thus I believe it is perfectly natural that a
given pedal position in different gears will result in a different maximum
revs.

Third, as I mentioned before, in MGP, if I set taller low gears, the problem
is much lessened.  As it should be be based on physics.

Last, hypothetically.  If you set your last gear taller, you won't reach
maximum rpm.  Actually, in your present car, you probably don't either.  Thus
full pedal travel does not equal max revs.  Obviously, in first gear, it does.
So, equal travel does not mean equal rpm.

I just think that in day-to-day driving, we are so used to the motions that we
instinctively compensate.  I know I do.  Put me in a 750hp monster, and I
think I'd have to develope a considerably different set of instincts.

Maybe not, but doesn't mean that it is wrong.

I'm not sure "natural" really applies to this situation.  Case in point: F1
cars are supposed to be incredibly hard to get going from a standstill.
Certainly this doesn't apply to our natural, ie low power real-world cars. For
an interesting read, I suggest the article in the Dec Car&Driver where one of
their guys gets to drive a '94 Arrows F1 car.

Bottom line, I find it hard to drive the MGP cars due to the problem you
state.  Yes, they could have made it easier.  No, I don't know what is right.
But I'm also sure your argument is not rigorously right either.

regards,
Dave

You have a 6 sp. Integra?  How far down do you have to push the pedal in
neutral to get redline r.p.m.'s?  If you only need to push it 1/3 of the way
in 1st gear, then you are experiencing the Japanese engineering I was
referring to in my earlier post.  My Accord was probably similar (but not
that bad).  A more serious "driver's" car like my Quattro would never be
set-up with that sort of artificial-make-the-dummy-behind-the-wheel think he
has a lot more power than he really does kind of accelerator pedal
configuration.

I just cannot believe that any engineer would set-up a monstrously
over-powered go-cart with a pedeal set-up like that.  The car would be so
difficult to drive and to manage all that power with a "normal" pedal
set-up.  Reducing all of the power delivery to a fraction of the pedal
travel available would just make thing needlessly more difficult.

Marc.

Oops, I knew something was wrong when I heard all that grinding ;-)

Sounds about right, but I don't know offhand...

I almost bought a new Quattro S4/S6 until I test drove one.  I was looking
forward to the huge advances in torque (about 270 lbs./ft. at 1800 rpm!!!!)
compared to my older model, but with basically the same 5 cylinder turbo
engine.  Out on the highway, the thing was revving higher than my older
model, even though the engine would have been happy idling.  I looked up the
stats. in my European auto books and realised that there the car comes with
a 6 speed manual ***, but the egg-heads at Audi figured we N. Americans
are too stupid to drive with the extra gear and only imported the 5 speed
version--which wrecked the car's highway cruising mode.  Honda's also rev.
way too high at highway speed (as compared to what they could be revving),
so I am sure you just instinctively reach for that next gear as you peel
down the straight at Monza...err, your local expressway :)

Marc.

Nice to even contemplate throwing around the big $ on one of these :-)  
Personally, I'd probably go BMW 3-series.

I have yet to drive a turbo I liked (I've driven MR2, Saabs, Eclipse/Talons).  
Maybe these new low-P variable nozzle types??

Hmmm.  They didn't change the gearing or final drive?  Perhaps it is due to
the European autobahn top speed vs what they think is a "reasonable" top speed
here?  Do they speed govern the US model?  Also, Europeans seem to favor high
rev driving a lot more than we do.

Yes, Hondas rev high.  I don't mind it as much as I think the typical US
driver does.  But yes, I would like a taller, more relaxed highway gear.  
If/when I'm in that driving mode, I'm ready to sacrifice throttle response for
pure cruisability.  I picked the LS over the GSR (which obviously would appeal
to the racer-enthusiast in me), partially due to the lower cruise rpm.  But I
do love it on accel and do miss that VTEC sound...