rec.autos.simulators

by **Antony Bower** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
*had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
"notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
FF game is running.

I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to
do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving
past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though.

So, is this unit defective, should I return it?

Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it?

Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use?

Grateful for any advice,

Anton

--
Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~bowers/

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the
motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell).
It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings:

Damping = 4000
Torque = 1800

Let me know what happens.

Slot

by **Andi Col** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I've had mine about a month now and it's taken some bashing in RC2K, SCGT
and Le Mans 24hr. Still as smooth as a babies bottom.

Andi.

by **Kevin Caldwel** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge,
from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that
comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version.

My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and
remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy
like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and
there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in
line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia
version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit.

I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the
electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working
again.

I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel
makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite
difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I
know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this.

Kevin Caldwell
Calgary, Canada

> I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
> *had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

> I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
> to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
> wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
> "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
> is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
> when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
> FF game is running.

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

The capacitor on the motor smoothes the starts and helps the motor last
longer.
Running a motor without a load helps to seat the brushes, but I can't see
that it would do any good here, especially since the motor will run in both
directions.
It's possible that the motor could look the same, but have stronger magnets
or more poles on the armature, which would give it a different feel.
You can get more power out of a motor by scoring the commutator, but again,
I don't see that it would do much on a FF wheel.

Slot

> I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge,
> from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that
> comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version.

> My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and
> remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy
> like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and
> there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in
> line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia
> version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit.

> I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the
> electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working
> again.

> I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel
> makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite
> difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I
> know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this.

> Kevin Caldwell
> Calgary, Canada

> > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
> > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

> > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
> > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
> > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
> > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
> > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
> > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
> > FF game is running.

by **don hodgdo** » Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:00:00

That's interesting Kevin, I've had my LWFF since November '98 (Made in
Taiwan) and it's as smooth today as it was the day I bought it. I was
thinking of buying another to have as a spare while trying the ball bearing
conversion on my current wheel. Maybe I should look for a used older wheel
to use for the conversion.

--
don

[|]-(_)-[|]

> I've had two LWFF wheels now. The second was sent complete, no charge,
> from LT, after my pedals stopped working. It is the newer version that
> comes with SCGT, while my other is an older version.

> My first wheel was made in Malaysia. It was quite smooth initially, and
> remained that way. The second was made in China, and is quite notchy
> like you describe, and it squeaks horribly. I've taken it apart, and
> there is no blatantly obvious difference between them. There is a cap in
> line with the motor lead on the China one, that is not on the Malaysia
> version. Both motors appear to be the same Johnson Controls unit.

> I've taken the mechanics of my Malaysia wheel, and mated it to the
> electronics of the China one, and have basically my old wheel working
> again.

> I have heard running in the motor for several hours outside the wheel
> makes them smoother. I haven't tried this. The China wheel is quite
> difficult to drive with due to the cogging effect. Not too helpful I
> know. I suspect all the newer wheels are like this.

> Kevin Caldwell
> Calgary, Canada

> > I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
> > *had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

> > I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
> > to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
> > wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
> > "notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
> > is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
> > when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
> > FF game is running.

by **Antony Bower** » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00

> Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the
> motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell).
> It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings:

> Damping = 4000
> Torque = 1800

> Let me know what happens.

Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible
for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement.
Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that
are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm)
speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units.

If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like
the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem.

I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the
normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40)
turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is
a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small
to be felt?

Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical?

Anton

--
Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Yes, people do like the Act Labs Force RS for GPL. They also like the
Guillemot Ferrari wheel. The resolution in the Force RS is actually quite
good. The wheel has over 270 turning, lock to lock, so it may take some
getting used to if you're using a wheel like the Logi with 180. But that
extra range also makes it easier to track down the straights.

The settings I gave have a solid theory behind them which has had
substantial coverage on here. I hope to post it on my site when time
permits. But in a nutshell, think of the possible range as 0 to 10,000. Now
figure using half that range to allow for clipping. Lastly, reverse names
for the settings. In other words, call core.ini's damping 'torque' and call
it's torque 'damping'. If you were to leave the steering_torque as you
usually have it, about 250, and increase the damping to 300, you should feel
less FF effects according to conventional wisdom, right? Well, try it and
you'll find you get more FF. I believe that if you try the settings I gave,
damping=4000 and torque=1800 to 2000, you'll like the feel.
Give it a try, it's free ;)

Slot

> > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to
the
> > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell).
> > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini
settings:

> > Damping = 4000
> > Torque = 1800

> > Let me know what happens.

> Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is
impossible
> for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty
replacement.
> Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made
LWFFs that
> are smooth. Jens Schumi's page

(http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm)

- Show quoted text -

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:00:00

It could be that you don't feel the armature/magnet pull much on the LW.
With the stronger motors in the Act Labs and even the Ferrari wheel you
definately do feel them as a slight notchy feel which some have previously
mistaken for the belt. The Act Labs motor is a little stronger than the
Ferrari motor, but the notchy feeling isn't greater because it uses a 7 pole
armature as opposed the 5 pole in the Ferrari. The Act has a certain amount
of built in resistence because of the strong motor, despite the fact that it
uses bearings on the shaft.

Slot

> About feeling the magnets:
> Since the motor makes alot of spins even on small wheel-turns, I don't
think you
> feel the magnets (at least without ball bearings inside). Again, it could
be a
> bent spindle (one notch per motor-turn).

> Hope this helps

> Jens

> >I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
> >*had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

> >I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
> >to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
> >wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
> >"notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
> >is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
> >when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
> >FF game is running.

> >I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to
> >do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving
> >past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though.

> >So, is this unit defective, should I return it?

> >Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it?

> >Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use?

> >Grateful for any advice,

> > Anton

> ---------------------------------------------

> Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

> Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious
stuff concerning:
> Radio controlled airplanes
> Racing simulation, esp. GPL
> Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

by J » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Use the more sloppy one for the conversion.
My old Taiwan one had much better bushings than the China one.

Jens

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by J » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

In my new wheel the motor spindle was bent horribly. If your wheel has the same
problem, you should have recognized a notchy feeling (when switched off) right
out of the box.

If this is the problem, return the wheel. It's almost impossible to straighten
the spindle.

Other thing could be some overlapped cables inside. To find out, you have to
remove the cover (up to you to risk your warranty).

About feeling the magnets:
Since the motor makes alot of spins even on small wheel-turns, I don't think you
feel the magnets (at least without ball bearings inside). Again, it could be a
bent spindle (one notch per motor-turn).

Hope this helps

Jens

>I've just bought a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force for GPL. I just
>*had* to know what GPL is like with FF!

>I've had the LWFF for 4 days, and have been using settings close
>to Alison Hine's suggestions. For the first couple of hours of use the
>wheel was excellent, very smooth and free, but it has since developed a
>"notchy" feel, with numerous distinct "clicks" or "jumps" as the wheel
>is turned. This makes it very hard to make small steering corrections
>when driving. The wheel feels notchy even when the power is off or no
>FF game is running.

>I don't think the problem is bearings, I think it is something to
>do with the motor. From the feel, I can easily imagine magnets moving
>past coils, like turning a generator. This is probably nonsense though.

>So, is this unit defective, should I return it?

>Or is everyone's LWFF like this, so I should live with it?

>Or is there a fix? Or will it improve with use?

>Grateful for any advice,

> Anton

---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning:
Radio controlled airplanes
Racing simulation, esp. GPL
Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

by J » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

How was the quality of the malaysian one?
Bushings and so on.

Jens

BTW I didn't know that the Logi was assembled in Malaysia too?

On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:08:35 -0700, Kevin Caldwell

<snip>
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Radio controlled airplanes
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Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

by **Kevi** » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Oops! It was made in Taiwan, not Malaysia. My mistake... must have been
thinking about the Malaysian GP or something!

Anyway, it seems quite good mechanically. There is some play in the wheel
due to bushing slop, but it is very smooth, and has been for the six months
I've had it.

Kevin

by J » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

The ActLab is told to be notchy right out of the box due to the belt-drive.
In general the cable drive should be the smoothest solution.
I put my wheel back together after the latest BB conversion and found a very
fine notchy feeling, which really comes from the motor magnets. Funny, in my old
Taiwan wheel I don't remember this.
I'm quite sure you cannot feel this on unmodified wheels, since all the sticky
bushings override anything (but the bent spindle).

Jens

>Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is
impossible
>for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty

replacement.
<snip>
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Racing simulation, esp. GPL
Logitech Wingman FF optimization
Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
Radio controlled airplanes

by **Antony Bower** » Thu, 09 Mar 2000 04:00:00

> ... If you were to leave the steering_torque as you
> usually have it, about 250, and increase the damping to 300, you should feel
> less FF effects according to conventional wisdom, right? Well, try it and
> you'll find you get more FF. I believe that if you try the settings I gave,
> damping=4000 and torque=1800 to 2000, you'll like the feel.
> Give it a try, it's free ;)

Thanks Slot, I will try it as soon as the replacement Logi arrives.

How should I set the control panel sliders?
Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%.

So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a slide.
When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel
seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the wheel
follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder with
no hope of recovery.

Do your settings make any difference to this effect?

Anton

--
Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

rec.autos.simulators

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF