rec.autos.simulators

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:00:00

----------------------------------------------------------------------
FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0%
-------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference.

Slot

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:00:00

OK. There are 2 notchy feelings in the Ferrari and Act Labs wheels. The one
from the belt feels like a zipper. Very fine notches. Liken it to dragging a
piece of cardboard across a fine toothed hacksaw blade. The faster you turn
the wheel, the more it disappears. This is not disconcerting at all. The
other notchy feeling, the one everyone is talking about, is caused by the
armature poles crossing the magnets. It's not a sharp notchy feel, it's more
like a rolling or pulling feeling. The lower you have the overall force
set, the less you feel it. So, turn Overall Device Gain down to 53% or so on
the Act wheel and it'll probably feel like a LWFF. I don't know if there is
a cure for this type of notchy feel, short of using a 15 pole armature or a
weaker motor. Once you're used to it you instinctively count the notches (as
reference) as you set up high speed turns, so it's got its good and bad
points. Remember, you still turn between the notches. They don't limit
resolution. Both the Ferrari and Force RS have more powerful motors than
previous wheels, and both have belts. Because they were new, everyone
assumed the belts were causing the notchy feeling, but what they were
actually feeling was the motor. Yes, the stiffness goes out of the Force RS
after about a month (it takes that long). Also remember that the Force RS
already uses bearings on the steering shaft.

Slot

> The ActLab is told to be notchy right out of the box due to the
belt-drive.
> In general the cable drive should be the smoothest solution.
> I put my wheel back together after the latest BB conversion and found a
very
> fine notchy feeling, which really comes from the motor magnets. Funny, in
my old
> Taiwan wheel I don't remember this.
> I'm quite sure you cannot feel this on unmodified wheels, since all the
sticky
> bushings override anything (but the bent spindle).

> Jens

> >Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is
> impossible
> >for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty
> replacement.
> <snip>
> ---------------------------------------------

> Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

> JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/
> Racing simulation, esp. GPL
> Logitech Wingman FF optimization
> Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
> Radio controlled airplanes

by **Andre Warring** » Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%,
and I'm not sure what the difference is.

Andre

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:00:00

GPL uses Constant Force (Vector Forces in i-Force) to program the feedback
instead of Spring Forces. Constant Force has to be updated frequently, every
frame (or even better, every millisecond), and is much harder to do,
especially smoothly, than Spring Force programming. But I think GPL pulls it
off very nicely. It's probably why you can get such subtle traction feedback
from the wheels. Because it's so much harder to do right, most games use
Spring Force and I fear that most of the new sims will also. In this
respect, at least, GPL may stay as a top sim for quite some time.
Theoretically, GPL ignores your spring settings. But due to crossovers and
general harmonics, putting a value in Spring Gain could throw out some
unexpected signals, spikes, glitches or whatever. If you don't notice a
difference, then it doesn't matter what you set it at. I use 0% just to be
safe.

Slot

> Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%,
> and I'm not sure what the difference is.

> Andre

> >> How should I set the control panel sliders?
> >> Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%.

> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0%
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a
slide.
> >> When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel
> >> seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the
> >wheel
> >> follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder
> >with
> >> no hope of recovery.

> >> Do your settings make any difference to this effect?

> >> Anton

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >----

> >Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference.

> >Slot

by **Andre Warring** » Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Thanks for the explanation Slot, I'll also keep it at zero just to be
sure then!

Andre

>GPL uses Constant Force (Vector Forces in i-Force) to program the feedback
>instead of Spring Forces. Constant Force has to be updated frequently, every
>frame (or even better, every millisecond), and is much harder to do,
>especially smoothly, than Spring Force programming. But I think GPL pulls it
>off very nicely. It's probably why you can get such subtle traction feedback
>from the wheels. Because it's so much harder to do right, most games use
>Spring Force and I fear that most of the new sims will also. In this
>respect, at least, GPL may stay as a top sim for quite some time.
>Theoretically, GPL ignores your spring settings. But due to crossovers and
>general harmonics, putting a value in Spring Gain could throw out some
>unexpected signals, spikes, glitches or whatever. If you don't notice a
>difference, then it doesn't matter what you set it at. I use 0% just to be
>safe.

>Slot

>> Why do you set the spring to 0%? I tried both settings, 0% and 150%,
>> and I'm not sure what the difference is.

>> Andre

>> >> How should I set the control panel sliders?
>> >> Currently: FF effects=150%, Spring=150%, Damping=0%.

>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >FF effects 150%, spring 0% and damping 0%
>> >-------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> So far, I've found that FF makes it much more difficult to catch a
>slide.
>> >> When the back end starts to slip and I feed in opposite lock, the wheel
>> >> seems to force an overcorrection, the car slams back the other way, the
>> >wheel
>> >> follows very powerfully and the oscillations just get wilder and wilder
>> >with
>> >> no hope of recovery.

>> >> Do your settings make any difference to this effect?

>> >> Anton

>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>> >----

>> >Yes, they'll make a difference. Probably a large difference.

>> >Slot

by **amos-opu** » Sun, 19 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Hi
There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my old taiwan
made wheel aswell.
Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to fix, but
not acceptable

Sudesh

> > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the
> > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell).
> > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings:

> > Damping = 4000
> > Torque = 1800

> > Let me know what happens.

> Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible
> for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement.
> Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that
> are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm)
> speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units.

> If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like
> the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem.

> I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the
> normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40)
> turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is
> a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small
> to be felt?

> Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical?

> Anton

> --
> Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
> http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

by **Skeet** » Sun, 19 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Can you explain how to fix the bent shaft since many of us only have
the china wheel.Also,can you tell if the shaft is bent without opening
up the unit?

On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus

>Hi
>There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my old taiwan
>made wheel aswell.
>Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to fix, but
>not acceptable

>Sudesh

>> > Probably it isn't nonsense. A notchy feeling can often be attributed to the
>> > motor. It could also be that your wheel is defective (too soon to tell).
>> > It's been a while since I've tried a LWFF, but try these core.ini settings:

>> > Damping = 4000
>> > Torque = 1800

>> > Let me know what happens.

>> Thanks. I'm sure it is the motor. The wheel is now so notchy that it is impossible
>> for me to use it properly in GPL, so I have returned it for warranty replacement.
>> Other responses in this thread suggest that there do exist China-made LWFFs that
>> are smooth. Jens Schumi's page (http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/LogiCorner.htm)
>> speculates that the motor shaft is bent on the notchy Chinese units.

>> If the replacement is also notchy, I will consider something else. Do people like
>> the Act Labs for GPL? I've heard that low resolution steering is a problem.

>> I don't understand the core.ini settings above because the figures seem outside the
>> normal range for these values. Does setting Damping to 4000 (Papy's default is 40)
>> turn maximum damping on all the time? Surely setting torque to 1800 (there is
>> a big difference between 250 and 330) will make all steering torque effects too small
>> to be felt?

>> Is there an rationale for these strange values, or are they just empirical?

>> Anton

>> --
>> Antony Bowers, Department of Computer Science, University of Bristol, UK.
>> http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~bowers/

by J » Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Unluckily not always easy to fix.
I made a new cylinder and grinded/turned it round by using the motor itself. Was
not perfect right away, but after decreasing the tension of the cable (decreased
diametre of cylinder) the wheel is now smooth.

I mailed Logitech about that s..t. Got the answer: "We look into that and ..."
blablabla.

Jens

>Hi
>There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my
old taiwan
>made wheel aswell.
>Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to
fix, but
>not acceptable

>Sudesh

---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/
Racing simulation, esp. GPL
Logitech Wingman FF optimization
Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
Radio controlled airplanes

by J » Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:00:00

Skeeter,
If there is a clear (coarse) notchy feeling on the wheel when NO POWER, then the
shaft is bent.
The magnets you can only feel when the power is on and you have ball bearings
inside

Jens

> Can you explain how to fix the bent shaft since many of us only have
>the china wheel.Also,can you tell if the shaft is bent without opening
>up the unit?

>On Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:29:54 +0100, amos-opus

---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/
Racing simulation, esp. GPL
Logitech Wingman FF optimization
Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
Radio controlled airplanes

by **Skeet** » Tue, 21 Mar 2000 04:00:00

>Unluckily not always easy to fix.
>I made a new cylinder and grinded/turned it round by using the motor itself. Was
>not perfect right away, but after decreasing the tension of the cable (decreased
>diametre of cylinder) the wheel is now smooth.

>I mailed Logitech about that s..t. Got the answer: "We look into that and ..."
>blablabla.

JS I have looked into your site and have some questions.First off
is the ball bearing conversion as hard as it looks:)I would love to do
that as I think it would improve the subtle forces better and I
probably could lower my force settings which are at 150.0 in the
core.ini.

Second question is about your brake pedal.You state that a squash
ball doesnt fit in the LOGI pedals but I have read that many people
are using it.I have looked all over for the doorstop thing but no luck
in my small town.

>Jens

>>Hi
>>There IS a problem with LWFF's made in china, I've mated the electronics to my
>old taiwan
>>made wheel aswell.
>>Afterdissassembling the wheel i found the axle of the motor was bent, easy to
>fix, but
>>not acceptable

>>Sudesh

>---------------------------------------------

>Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

>JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/
>Racing simulation, esp. GPL
>Logitech Wingman FF optimization
>Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
>Radio controlled airplanes

rec.autos.simulators

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF

Help: notchy new LWFF