rec.autos.simulators

All a bit tragic?

Herbert Pohl

All a bit tragic?

by Herbert Pohl » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:23:33


>Reasonable points, me thinks.
...
>> Watching and attending are two different things. I wouldn't be surpised that
>> NASCAR events get more bodies thru the turnstiles than F1. Remember, oval
>> racing is more spectator friendly. At the typical F1 event, you're watching
>> a fraction of the action. F1 is probably BETTER on TV than live. NASCAR
>> just the opposite.

Well, and then there is the question: Is it SIM FRIENDLY ?

I think, it was a wise decision to go for pre wing F1 age for a
sim like GPL. Why?

These cars dont make abrupt moves. No high accelerations.
No sharp turns, low speeds when turning. No sudden slowdowns.

Why is this important for a good modern sim? Well, IMHO:

1) The paths of the cars are more predictable in case
   of net lag/glitches.

2) The driver has more time to react.  The whole
   sim doesnt feel too arcade like.
   (modern F1 is arcadish - just watch driver actions
   from***pit cameras...)
   And of course, this means it is more network friendly
   again. Network latency doesnt have too much influence
   when reaction times are not that important.  

But I agree, playability is not a marketing factor :(

To sell a game, you just have to have a huge number of
potential customers, the graphics have to be top notch,
and you need to put some millions in advertising.

Thats the downside of capitalism and democracy.

Everybody wants something special, but they just
produce things they can sell to the masses ;)

   Calis

Douglas Elliso

All a bit tragic?

by Douglas Elliso » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:12:00



> <snip>
> > The amount of Americans into F1 is very small.
> <snip>

> There are other markets, you know. OKay, so the US is much bigger, but
> Europe as a whole must be close, and the Japanese follow F1 too.

Europe as a whole is 300 million +  and will probably have say 20 million F1
viewers out of that lot.

I believe the USA is 250 million people - of which 6 million watch Nascar

Doug

Douglas Elliso

All a bit tragic?

by Douglas Elliso » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:13:57


They spent loads of time on Melbourne - but only because it went into the
demo

Doug

Bryon Lap

All a bit tragic?

by Bryon Lap » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:38:50

I stand corrected.

> Actually to get a bit off topic the Stanley cup Champion in never
> referred to as hockey's world champion. That honor is reserved for the
> country that wins the IIHF World Hockey Championship tournament each
> April. Just a nitpick as a hockey crazed canuck (who still loves his
> racing on equal ground I might add)


> > More people watch the World Cup than the Super Bowl, yet it is the football
> > "World Championship".  More people watch the World Cup than the Stanley Cup, yet
> > it is the hockey "World Championship".  More people watch the World Cup than the
> > World Series, yet it is the baseball "World Championship".  More people watch
> > the World Cup than the NBA playoffs, yet it is the basketball "World
> > Championship".  See a pattern here yet?


> >>Umm, you must be thinking with a US mindset. FAR more people watch F1 across
> >>the world than NASCAR. NASCAR can only dream about F1 numbers--remember,
> >>this is the WORLD we are talking about and not just the NASCAR-crazed US.
> >>I'm sure that Google could probably point you to some actual numbers.

> >>--
> >>---------------------
> >>Rob Berryhill



> >>>I would like to see numbers backing THAT up...

> >>>-Larry



> >>>>>You don't think a Papy F1 sim would sell? And I'm not talking about
> >>>>>1967. If they did a really good current F1 season I think it would
> >>>>>sell very well. Nascar has poor sales in Europe so F1 would probably
> >>>>>do even better on the market than Nascar.

> >>>>A LOT more people watch F1 than Nascar - so one can presume that despite

> >>1

> >>>>average and 2 ***offerings of F1 titles already - a properly done one
> >>>>would sell well

> >>>>Doug

Dave Henri

All a bit tragic?

by Dave Henri » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:28:07

"Sebastion Melmoth"
  If Papy did an F1 sim, it probably would sell better, at least in Europe.
But the number of F1 fans in the STATES is quite small compared to Nascar
fans.  Dang near everyone in country has heard of Richard Petty and Dale
Earnhardt.   Most casual fans know of Jeff Gordon and the guy who won't
drive the Brown truck.
  But ask them about Luciano Burti and even Michael Schumacher and you will
only get puzzled stares..
  Same goes for CART unfortunately.  I talk with a few Nascar fans at my
workplace about the great race at XXX and they go wha??????
  Here in the states...which is Papyrus' main market...Nascar is King...it
doesn't matter how many world wide viewers there are, it doesn't matter how
many countries take part.  It doesn't matter that the drivers, cars, etc etc
are all Uber-proffessional(well excepting Arrows & Minardi, Jordan & BAR
&&...)
   If it doesn't have that Nascar decal on the box, it just doesn't sell in
America regardless of who codes it.
dave henrie

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:16:36

Funny you should bring this up. I just saw a post in another newsgroup where
someone figured up the NASCAR standings based on the F1 system

     Points
Kenseth         47
Stewart         38
Johnson         31
Marlin         31
Martin         30
Busch         26
Rudd         24
Earnhardt Jr     24
Jarrett         23
Newman         18
Gordon         16
B Labonte       16
E Sadler         13
Waltrip         11
W Burton        10
J Burton         10
Elliott          9
Craven          8
Mayfield          8
Spencer          6
T Labonte         5
G Bodine          4
Harvick          4
Green          2
Benson          1
R Wallace        1

MadDAWG

Jeff Vince

All a bit tragic?

by Jeff Vince » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:31:13

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:01:58 +0100, "Douglas Ellison"


>For formula one - you can usually only find the total number of people who
>watch an F1 race thru the year - which was 54 billion for 2001. (
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/motorsport/formula_one/newsid_...
>/1842217.stm )

   I've always wondered what other planets watch Bernie's F1
circus?...  (ie: we've only got 6+ billion potential viewers on this
one)  :)

   And even if you say that's over 18 different races, do you really
believe that *one half of the world's population* watches *every* F1
race (54b / 18  = 3b)?  Does one half of the world's population even
have access to TV on a regular basis?

   Always sounded like bogus numbers to me...

   And, by Bernie's accounting, if you change the channel and come
back again, you're probably one more viewer...

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:29:51

Yes I know their is other markets, but it simply comes down to economics. If
they thought they could make money at it they would. Since they don't
....well I'm sure you can figure it out.  Keep in mind titles like GPL were
financial flops. I would dare to say that the GPL community is hurting its
chances of getting a GPL2. With all the new stuff that keeps rolling out why
would most people upgrade? These companies are in it to make a living not to
please us. I'll us the damage model in NR2002 as an example. Could they fix
it so its more realistic? Sure and pretty easily I would bet. Will they? No
because they don't want to make the game getting a bad rap for being to hard
like GPL did. Groups like this again hurt this because they look down on
anyone that races in lesser modes as being a "lamer gamer". Now don't get me
wrong I'd love to see another true sim come out, but I'm not betting on it.
I'd say GPL is the last one. IMO NR2002 is close but the weak damage model
keeps it below GPL.

MadDAWG

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:43:11

I agree F1 has a bigger fan base world wide than NASCAR, but those 20
million F1 fan have a computer and a F1 sim vs. the NASCAR fans with the
same. I would bet the percent is alot higher than F1. If only for the simple
fact Americans throw money around alot more than other countries.  I'm not
trying to***anyone off here I'm just trying to point out that if a
company has a product that sells why mess with something else. Why do a F1
sim when there is already three other major players in the market? Even if
you make the best product for us sim racers that is still only a small
segment of the market overall. Its looks to me that Papy has decided to go
the yearly release route like EA is doing with most of its titles. This
probably doesn't leave them much time to do anything else. This could leave
the door open for someone else to make a run at another type of racing. ISI
with F1 is a good example of this. I really hope they prove me wrong on
this, but I'm not holding my breath.

MadDAWG

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:48:19

Ding, ding, ding,  we have a winner!

MadDAWG

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:53:13

Take that one step further. things that have NASCAR on the box sell when
they shouldn't!   aka NASCAR Revolution  :)

MadDAWG

Douglas Elliso

All a bit tragic?

by Douglas Elliso » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:22:42


Because it would sell more than Nascar

Doug

Mitch Alatorr

All a bit tragic?

by Mitch Alatorr » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:30:32

I think we are all DAMN lucky to get something like NR2k2 and should be
thankfaul anyone caters to our likes, the *** market.  Which btw is
pretty small in the big scheme of things.




> > > Europe as a whole is 300 million +  and will probably have say 20
> million
> > F1
> > > viewers out of that lot.

> > > I believe the USA is 250 million people - of which 6 million watch
> Nascar

> > > Doug

> > I agree F1 has a bigger fan base world wide than NASCAR, but those 20
> > million F1 fan have a computer and a F1 sim vs. the NASCAR fans with the
> > same. I would bet the percent is alot higher than F1. If only for the
> simple
> > fact Americans throw money around alot more than other countries.  I'm
not
> > trying to***anyone off here I'm just trying to point out that if a
> > company has a product that sells why mess with something else.

> Because it would sell more than Nascar

> Doug

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:50:38

I really doubt it. If it would I think they'd do it, if nothing more than
simple greed. We have all seen the hints dropped by Krammer that he wants to
do another open wheel title. So the desire is there, but the market is not.

MadDAWG

MadDAW

All a bit tragic?

by MadDAW » Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:52:18

Or a computer, and of those that do have a computer what percent play race
sims?

MadDAWG.


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