rec.autos.simulators

by **Bryon Lap** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:15:37

More people watch the World Cup than the Super Bowl, yet it is the football
"World Championship". More people watch the World Cup than the Stanley Cup, yet
it is the hockey "World Championship". More people watch the World Cup than the
World Series, yet it is the baseball "World Championship". More people watch
the World Cup than the NBA playoffs, yet it is the basketball "World
Championship". See a pattern here yet?

> Umm, you must be thinking with a US mindset. FAR more people watch F1 across
> the world than NASCAR. NASCAR can only dream about F1 numbers--remember,
> this is the WORLD we are talking about and not just the NASCAR-crazed US.
> I'm sure that Google could probably point you to some actual numbers.

> --
> ---------------------
> Rob Berryhill

> > I would like to see numbers backing THAT up...

> > -Larry

> > > > You don't think a Papy F1 sim would sell? And I'm not talking about
> > > > 1967. If they did a really good current F1 season I think it would
> > > > sell very well. Nascar has poor sales in Europe so F1 would probably
> > > > do even better on the market than Nascar.

> > > A LOT more people watch F1 than Nascar - so one can presume that despite
> 1
> > > average and 2 ***offerings of F1 titles already - a properly done one
> > > would sell well

> > > Doug

by **Scot** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:18:57

Either with or without TC it's a bit too grippy.

TJ

by **Jan Verschuere** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:22:22

Blasphemy!! ;-))

I see your point, GPL is showing it's age. However, the tyre/grip model was
under question as soon as people started being able to go absurdly quickly
by using yaw/drift angles which were unquestionably too large/wrong. Which
was quite soon after official release, IIRC.

As an offline game I think it's basically dead. Online, however, there's a
lot people clinging on because of the comraderie or because they dislike the
alternative. Which leads us to...

I move to disagree. There's subtleties on every level. Adjusting the car to
your particular style is one (have to really educate myself on this level),
adjusting your driving technique to maximize the benifits of a certain setup
and get the most out of your tyres. Each oval track is subtely different and
while driving it on your own might not pose a challenge, having 20 people
around who can get around it nearly as well or slightly quicker opens up a
whole can of tactical possibilities. Chess/bluff poker on wheels.

Call me weird, but I get a great sense of acchievement turning smooth,
effortless laps on the road courses with these cars (haven't tried the
converted tracks yet). Whoever made the default setups for these is
obviously taking the piss, but think about the particulars for a bit and
it's easy to see where things went wrong. Once you reach the point where the
weight shift in the cars matches the rythm of the track these cars basically
drive themselves. You find yourself no longer driving it, but conducting an
eight cylinder orchestra instead.

Anyhow, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one. There's no arguing about
what rings people's bell.

I don't know... it hard for me to judge how much of the situation is down to
you. Don't get me wrong, I understand your plight and I would like more
diversity in Papyrus simulations myself. -Or, better said, I'd like the
average level of sims to be higher regardless of particular developers.-
It's just I find it hard to understand why you're not challenged to look
beyond your prejudice.

Jan.
=---

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:37:51

Not quite so detestful of the roundy-round boys as you Doug, but I too think
it's a shame the best technology in the sim business *by far* is ONLY to be
found in an oval-laden Nascar sim. Fine, but just not my thing. And F1
2002 has some nice bits, but it's really just not on the same level,
product-wise, as NR2002. Every time I take one of those lumbering stockers
around the Osterreichring or Silverstone I can't help imagining what GPL2
might have been. Or what a great Trans Am or ALMS sim the Papy engine would
make. I love ALMS for the variety of cars and the constant traffic.
Wouldn't mixed-class online racing be a hoot?

Guess there's always....well, you know. ;-)

SB

<snip>

by **Scot** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:48:28

Either with or without TC it's a bit too grippy.

TJ

by **Larr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:00:14

As a matter of fact, I am.

But I know what you are getting at, and it is not even near the same thing.

There is teamwork, yes. Of course there is. That's why there are multi-car
teams (or part of it). But it's the team against the OTHER teams, not team
orders dictating what driver of a particular team is going to win.

I'm not saying it has never happened, and I'm not saying it never will
happen. But I can bet it'll be a hell of a lot more subtle than what we've
seen in F1 :)

But there is NOTHING like what went down in Austria.

-Larry

> >We Americans have this funny thing about wanting to let the drivers win
> >based on skill, the car, and of course luck. Team 'orders' can go to
hell.

> Aren't you a DEI fan?

> Jason

by **Larr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:03:10

Hehe! Well, I asked :)

Thanks for the info!

-Larry

> > > I would like to see numbers backing THAT up...

> > > -Larry

> > I'd wager that you could quite easily quadruple the number of people who
> > watch nascar and you still wouldnt reach the viewing figures of F1.

> > Just because Amerian Baseball is called the 'world series' doesnt mean
> that
> > the world doesnt exist west of LA or East of NY

> > Doug

> The only figures I seem to be able to find are thus....

> http://jayski.thatsracin.com/pages/tvratings.htm

> Nascar seems to get between 4.5 and 6.5 million viewers. It's impossible
to
> guage how many people watch overseas - but I REALLY dont expect it to be
> very many at all. Perhaps as many again - so call it 12 million per race
> world wide. ( The 'Tona 500 was a one off at 10.9 million viewers)

> For formula one - you can usually only find the total number of people who
> watch an F1 race thru the year - which was 54 billion for 2001. (

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/motorsport/formula_one/newsid_...

- Show quoted text -

by **Larr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:04:37

Reasonable points, me thinks.

-Larry

by **jason moy** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:21:00

Ok, theoretical situation.

Last race of the season. Dale Earnhardt Jr can win the championship
by placing 5th or better, regardless of what the 2nd place driver does
(Sterling Marlin).

With 5 laps to go, Sterling Marlin is leading, Michael Waltrip is
running 5th, and Dale Earnhardt Jr is running 6th. Do you think that
Waltrip is going to try and hold onto a top 5 or let little E by?

I don't think there's any question what would happen, and there's no
question in my mind that it would be the right call.

A good real life example would be Jeff Gordon's championship a few
years ago (1995 I think?) when he needed to finish anywhere but last
in the final race to win. Hendrick entered a 4th team car and had it
retire when the race started so that Gordon couldn't lose. Is that
cheating?

Jason

>As a matter of fact, I am.

>But I know what you are getting at, and it is not even near the same thing.

>There is teamwork, yes. Of course there is. That's why there are multi-car
>teams (or part of it). But it's the team against the OTHER teams, not team
>orders dictating what driver of a particular team is going to win.

>I'm not saying it has never happened, and I'm not saying it never will
>happen. But I can bet it'll be a hell of a lot more subtle than what we've
>seen in F1 :)

>But there is NOTHING like what went down in Austria.

>-Larry

>> >We Americans have this funny thing about wanting to let the drivers win
>> >based on skill, the car, and of course luck. Team 'orders' can go to
>hell.

>> Aren't you a DEI fan?

>> Jason

by **jason moy** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:26:35

One other thing I need to add.

The reason you don't what happened in Austria happening in NASCAR is
because the point system in NASCAR rewards consistency more than
podium finishes. If Formula One used a system where last place was
given 5 points and each place you finished higher gave you an
additional 5 points, you wouldn't see situations like happened in
Austria because there would be minimal benefit to doing such a thing.

On the other hand, if NASCAR used the F1 point system I think you'd
see it happening fairly frequently.

Jason

>Ok, theoretical situation.

>Last race of the season. Dale Earnhardt Jr can win the championship
>by placing 5th or better, regardless of what the 2nd place driver does
>(Sterling Marlin).

>With 5 laps to go, Sterling Marlin is leading, Michael Waltrip is
>running 5th, and Dale Earnhardt Jr is running 6th. Do you think that
>Waltrip is going to try and hold onto a top 5 or let little E by?

>I don't think there's any question what would happen, and there's no
>question in my mind that it would be the right call.

>A good real life example would be Jeff Gordon's championship a few
>years ago (1995 I think?) when he needed to finish anywhere but last
>in the final race to win. Hendrick entered a 4th team car and had it
>retire when the race started so that Gordon couldn't lose. Is that
>cheating?

>Jason

>>As a matter of fact, I am.

>>But I know what you are getting at, and it is not even near the same thing.

>>There is teamwork, yes. Of course there is. That's why there are multi-car
>>teams (or part of it). But it's the team against the OTHER teams, not team
>>orders dictating what driver of a particular team is going to win.

>>I'm not saying it has never happened, and I'm not saying it never will
>>happen. But I can bet it'll be a hell of a lot more subtle than what we've
>>seen in F1 :)

>>But there is NOTHING like what went down in Austria.

>>-Larry

>>> >We Americans have this funny thing about wanting to let the drivers win
>>> >based on skill, the car, and of course luck. Team 'orders' can go to
>>hell.

>>> Aren't you a DEI fan?

>>> Jason

by **Larr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:31:31

And I would agree with Nascar's use of it either, if it did happen.

I don't have anything against F1 racing. I've rather enjoyed watching these
mad-men. I just don't like the politics behind the scene's.

That's all.

-Larry

> One other thing I need to add.

> The reason you don't what happened in Austria happening in NASCAR is
> because the point system in NASCAR rewards consistency more than
> podium finishes. If Formula One used a system where last place was
> given 5 points and each place you finished higher gave you an
> additional 5 points, you wouldn't see situations like happened in
> Austria because there would be minimal benefit to doing such a thing.

> On the other hand, if NASCAR used the F1 point system I think you'd
> see it happening fairly frequently.

> Jason

> >Ok, theoretical situation.

> >Last race of the season. Dale Earnhardt Jr can win the championship
> >by placing 5th or better, regardless of what the 2nd place driver does
> >(Sterling Marlin).

> >With 5 laps to go, Sterling Marlin is leading, Michael Waltrip is
> >running 5th, and Dale Earnhardt Jr is running 6th. Do you think that
> >Waltrip is going to try and hold onto a top 5 or let little E by?

> >I don't think there's any question what would happen, and there's no
> >question in my mind that it would be the right call.

> >A good real life example would be Jeff Gordon's championship a few
> >years ago (1995 I think?) when he needed to finish anywhere but last
> >in the final race to win. Hendrick entered a 4th team car and had it
> >retire when the race started so that Gordon couldn't lose. Is that
> >cheating?

> >Jason

> >>As a matter of fact, I am.

> >>But I know what you are getting at, and it is not even near the same
thing.

> >>There is teamwork, yes. Of course there is. That's why there are
multi-car
> >>teams (or part of it). But it's the team against the OTHER teams, not
team
> >>orders dictating what driver of a particular team is going to win.

> >>I'm not saying it has never happened, and I'm not saying it never will
> >>happen. But I can bet it'll be a hell of a lot more subtle than what
we've
> >>seen in F1 :)

> >>But there is NOTHING like what went down in Austria.

> >>-Larry

> >>> >We Americans have this funny thing about wanting to let the drivers
win
> >>> >based on skill, the car, and of course luck. Team 'orders' can go to
> >>hell.

> >>> Aren't you a DEI fan?

> >>> Jason

by **The Other Larr** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:37:30

That should read "Would NOT" agree...

-Larry

> And I would agree with Nascar's use of it either, if it did happen.

> I don't have anything against F1 racing. I've rather enjoyed watching
these
> mad-men. I just don't like the politics behind the scene's.

> That's all.

> -Larry

> > One other thing I need to add.

> > The reason you don't what happened in Austria happening in NASCAR is
> > because the point system in NASCAR rewards consistency more than
> > podium finishes. If Formula One used a system where last place was
> > given 5 points and each place you finished higher gave you an
> > additional 5 points, you wouldn't see situations like happened in
> > Austria because there would be minimal benefit to doing such a thing.

> > On the other hand, if NASCAR used the F1 point system I think you'd
> > see it happening fairly frequently.

> > Jason

> > >Ok, theoretical situation.

> > >Last race of the season. Dale Earnhardt Jr can win the championship
> > >by placing 5th or better, regardless of what the 2nd place driver does
> > >(Sterling Marlin).

> > >With 5 laps to go, Sterling Marlin is leading, Michael Waltrip is
> > >running 5th, and Dale Earnhardt Jr is running 6th. Do you think that
> > >Waltrip is going to try and hold onto a top 5 or let little E by?

> > >I don't think there's any question what would happen, and there's no
> > >question in my mind that it would be the right call.

> > >A good real life example would be Jeff Gordon's championship a few
> > >years ago (1995 I think?) when he needed to finish anywhere but last
> > >in the final race to win. Hendrick entered a 4th team car and had it
> > >retire when the race started so that Gordon couldn't lose. Is that
> > >cheating?

> > >Jason

> > >>As a matter of fact, I am.

> > >>But I know what you are getting at, and it is not even near the same
> thing.

> > >>There is teamwork, yes. Of course there is. That's why there are
> multi-car
> > >>teams (or part of it). But it's the team against the OTHER teams, not
> team
> > >>orders dictating what driver of a particular team is going to win.

> > >>I'm not saying it has never happened, and I'm not saying it never will
> > >>happen. But I can bet it'll be a hell of a lot more subtle than what
> we've
> > >>seen in F1 :)

> > >>But there is NOTHING like what went down in Austria.

> > >>-Larry

> > >>> >We Americans have this funny thing about wanting to let the drivers
> win
> > >>> >based on skill, the car, and of course luck. Team 'orders' can go
to
> > >>hell.

> > >>> Aren't you a DEI fan?

> > >>> Jason

by **Damien Smit** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:05:59

Agreed. You can actually brake hard with half the car on the grass and not
suffer any real consequences.

They've done quite a good job of Magny-Cours in F1 2002 - They've improved
it considerably over last year's effort. In fact, they seem to have spent
more time there than any other track...

--
Damien Smith

ICQ: 77028579
F1 2001 rank: -11.512

by **Brad Larocqu** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:07:36

Actually to get a bit off topic the Stanley cup Champion in never
referred to as hockey's world champion. That honor is reserved for the
country that wins the IIHF World Hockey Championship tournament each
April. Just a nitpick as a hockey crazed canuck (who still loves his
racing on equal ground I might add)

> More people watch the World Cup than the Super Bowl, yet it is the football
> "World Championship". More people watch the World Cup than the Stanley Cup, yet
> it is the hockey "World Championship". More people watch the World Cup than the
> World Series, yet it is the baseball "World Championship". More people watch
> the World Cup than the NBA playoffs, yet it is the basketball "World
> Championship". See a pattern here yet?

>>Umm, you must be thinking with a US mindset. FAR more people watch F1 across
>>the world than NASCAR. NASCAR can only dream about F1 numbers--remember,
>>this is the WORLD we are talking about and not just the NASCAR-crazed US.
>>I'm sure that Google could probably point you to some actual numbers.

>>--
>>---------------------
>>Rob Berryhill

>>>I would like to see numbers backing THAT up...

>>>-Larry

>>>>>You don't think a Papy F1 sim would sell? And I'm not talking about
>>>>>1967. If they did a really good current F1 season I think it would
>>>>>sell very well. Nascar has poor sales in Europe so F1 would probably
>>>>>do even better on the market than Nascar.

>>>>A LOT more people watch F1 than Nascar - so one can presume that despite

>>1

>>>>average and 2 ***offerings of F1 titles already - a properly done one
>>>>would sell well

>>>>Doug

by **Rob** » Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:58:26

Except that this discussion isn't about attendance at races, it's about
potential market for a product. F1 has a far bigger market.

BTW, I think the attendance issue is debatable, especially if you only go by
the per race average since F1 has fewer races.

--
---------------------
Rob Berryhill

rec.autos.simulators

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