rec.autos.simulators

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 05:27:32

......from what I can see....these complaints don't have anything to do with
N4 programming or software issues at all!

What they are about is the following:

"Gamers" who think they can install N4, run a few laps at Talledega....then
jump into online races and be competitive!" Yikes....its Total
Entertainment Network (TEN), N3 "crash and bash" pick up racing......all
over again! DeJaVu TEN racing at Tally.....oh my God!

Have we not learned anything in the three or four years this sim racing
community has been racing over the Internet, in online Multiplayer? This
kind of thing virtually ruined pick up racing on TEN (and WON)....and it
will do it with NASCAR Racing 4, too! Why? Because we....as a sim racing
community....***allow it to happen.***

Oh sure, all of us "regulars"....the "old-timers" can just go off by
ourselves......race online in our little leagues and tight-nit forum
groups....and "ignore" this issue.....leaving the "mess" to someone else to
deal with. This is what many of us have been doing for several years now.
Can we stop doing that?

This is the biggest "dis-service" we can do to online sim racing! And, the
surest way to ruin this activity as a viable "online sport" or hobby......is
if we simply run away from this problem.....as so many of us have been
doing....then it will never go away....or improve.

How do we "reach" the newbie online racer........and get our message across
to them loud and clear? This is particularly difficult to do without
"pre-race chat rooms" which are characteristic of VROC and TEN/WON racing!
In their absence......we have to rely on newsgroups (like this one) and sim
racing websites....with "newbie online racing/mulitplayer" FAQ's and so
forth....to get the message across loud and clear to new online drivers.
But, how does the "newbie" find us.......BEFORE they spend six months racing
online crashing everybody left and right?

I don't know, there's no "single answer" to that problem. But, I do know
that if those of us who have been racing online for a period of time just
"ignore" the issue.....race only in our little "groupie" leagues and don't
contribute our knowledge and experience to the general sim racing
community....the "newbie" will never get the message! And, online "pick up
racing" will continue to be a complete waste of time! That's too bad.....

I wish that every racing simulation software.....produced.....and sold in
the world ......would have the following message plastered across the face
of the manual, the CD....and the back cover of the "game box".......

****BEFORE you attempt online racing in multiplayer mode......go to
www.XXXnewOnlineRacer.com and read the FAQ list "BEFORE" you attempt
Multiplayer racing. You must not only read it....you must be capable of
doing and performing in a manner consistent with the FAQ instructions......
during a Multiplayer race with other drivers....absolutely everything the
FAQ suggests to you and requires of everyone who races online.****

Of course, not only does this URL not exist....as you probably know if you
are a newbie and just clicked it......but that "message" doesn't appear on
one single game box cover or sim racing manual or CD cover in existence
right at the moment! The developers don't consider it to be their
responsibility to "moderate" the quality of Multiplayer play in their
software....and they are right about that (although there a few things they
could do that would help the situation.....a few have made attempts....while
Papyrus was one of the worst at doing this at one time....I now think they
are one of the best). It is our responsibility.....as leaders and
"experienced" sim racing drivers to do this.

So......to follow my own advise....I am going to "promise" to myself and
those members of the sim racing community that regularly visit and "post" on
this newsgroup.......to "bring this issue up".....to educate and
help....every "newbie" I detect....who makes a post on this newsgroup. That
should cover the few hundred that don't make posts...but just read the
postings....... too!

Here's my first contribution:

*****Regarding the N4 Function Keys access during online racing******

Unless you have your keyboard mounted on your race controller...with all
necessary "keys" within a few inches of your fingers ....and you can
activate them "by touch" without looking at your hand, or the
keyboard.....or, they are mapped to your wheel buttons....then you are going
to wreck a lot....and "wreck" the rest of us along with you. Please don't
race online, please! You could get away with "hunt and peck" for the
"display commands"......in N3 (maybe....because the car physics were much
more "foregiving").........but that will never be the case in N4. NEVER!

*****Did anybody pick up on Darrel Waltrip's "story" during the FOX Sports
broadcast of the Goody Dash yesterday at Daytona? He was kidding about his
crew chief having to get into the back seat of his race car......run laps at
Tally at 220 mph...in private testing....no other cars were on the
track.....so his crew chief could record the "readings" on the dash
instruments. Darrel said, "Hell, I can't take my eyes of the road at those
speeds long enough to look at the tach even.....except maybe to tell you
what general direction its pointing....like "up" or "down".......no way I
can give you the readings of all the dash instruments.....have you tried to
drive this sucker and do it?" Another comment was made about trying to see
how far the rpm's fall off when in the turns at Daytona........nobody says
they can take their eyes off the track....especially when drafting....long
enough to look at the tach!

******************So My Fellow Sim Racers**********************

If the best stock car drivers in the world can't even look at the tach on
their dash...right in front of their faces.......what the heck makes you
think you can search around for your keyboard's F1 key.......and not
crash........taking a few of us with you?

Make yourself a simply mounting bracket (out of aluminum 1" strap you can
buy at any hardware store in the world) for your keyboard mount.......and
use it when online racing. Or....map the important function keys to your
race controller wheel buttons...if it supports that option, or use
headphones and a voice command program like "Game Commander." And if you
are drafting me at Tally, or Daytona, or Michigan, or C***te.....or
racing behind me at Sears Point or Watkins or Martinsville....please don't
ever take your eyes off my car...even for a split second! And, unless
you've been running behind me for 5 to 10 laps....and are totally sure of
exaclty where and when my braking points are located on every
turn.....please maintain a 5 car length distance between us until you are
ready to make a "clean" pass on me! I would appreciate it.....so would
everyone else who happens to be in front of you!

And, if you think a good way to pass someone is by outbraking them into a
tight turn....or **any turn** for that matter.......then please don't ever
race in the real world....because if you don't get killed on the race track
first.....you'll be killed by your fellow competitors in the
pits.......eventually! No matter who you are.....this applies to Jeff
Gordon as much as it applies to "Johnny Newbie"......if you wreck someone
attempting an "outbraking" pass.....its your fault...and you will get your
***kicked by the person you wrecked...and then the other competitors after
he is done with you!

If you are new to online racing......here's a couple of "hints."

If you follow some of these basic rules of racing....don't wreck people and
so forth. You can race with me anytime you want. I don't care how fast you
are....I care only how "safe" you are driving at any speed! You can also
ask me questions and pick my brain as much as you want.....and I'll do
everything I can to help you be a better, faster online sim driver. If, you
ever encounter me in online racing.....unless I tell you that I am unable to
help you at that moment.....and I refuse to help you or answer your
questions, or at least get my email address to you so I can do it
later.......then please come into this newsgroup and post my name ....LOUD
and CLEARLY.....as to the fact that I would not help you! That's a "ditto"
for any other experienced sim racer you run into that refuses to help you.

Regards,

Tom Pabst

Pabst-Racing.com

by **gave** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:54:20

You are not an " old timer". And beleive me, no one on TEN ever mistook you
for being a sim driver.
Gavel

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:54:21

Huh?

by **Larr** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:24:09

Excellent points, Tom.

Hell, you can't even avoid the "Slinky Syndrome" on pace and yellow laps.
You would think the pace car sets a different "Guess what pace speed I'm
running today" pace.

Slinky pace laps are worse with N4. People are getting a kick out of the
new performance found and N4, and can't seem to resist the Goosing the
engine to see the cockpit move back and forth.

The obsolute worse problem is Lappers have completely, totally, forgotten
how to yield to faster traffic. Reminds me of the left-lane blockers on the
Beltway here in the DC area.

And let's not forget the spinners who think they have the right-of-way to
pull back onto the track in front of everyone else, and that it's OUR job to
manuever around them.

League racing is too limited in time and scope for me. When I wanna race, I
wanna race. When I can't, I can't. I'd just like to be able to join some
races and have some fun for a change, and improve my skills.

Heaven help you bring any of this to anyone's attention online, though.
You're immediately called a whiner, and treated as a bigger dirt-bag than
the idiot that's causing all the wrecks.

It don't figure...

-Larry

"Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:UGXh6.87024$R5.3949031@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com...

> ......from what I can see....these complaints don't have anything to do
with
> N4 programming or software issues at all!

> What they are about is the following:

> "Gamers" who think they can install N4, run a few laps at
Talledega....then
> jump into online races and be competitive!" Yikes....its Total
> Entertainment Network (TEN), N3 "crash and bash" pick up racing......all
> over again! DeJaVu TEN racing at Tally.....oh my God!

> Have we not learned anything in the three or four years this sim racing
> community has been racing over the Internet, in online Multiplayer? This
> kind of thing virtually ruined pick up racing on TEN (and WON)....and it
> will do it with NASCAR Racing 4, too! Why? Because we....as a sim racing
> community....***allow it to happen.***

> Oh sure, all of us "regulars"....the "old-timers" can just go off by
> ourselves......race online in our little leagues and tight-nit forum
> groups....and "ignore" this issue.....leaving the "mess" to someone else
to
> deal with. This is what many of us have been doing for several years now.
> Can we stop doing that?

> This is the biggest "dis-service" we can do to online sim racing! And,
the
> surest way to ruin this activity as a viable "online sport" or
hobby......is
> if we simply run away from this problem.....as so many of us have been
> doing....then it will never go away....or improve.

> How do we "reach" the newbie online racer........and get our message
across
> to them loud and clear? This is particularly difficult to do without
> "pre-race chat rooms" which are characteristic of VROC and TEN/WON racing!
> In their absence......we have to rely on newsgroups (like this one) and
sim
> racing websites....with "newbie online racing/mulitplayer" FAQ's and so
> forth....to get the message across loud and clear to new online drivers.
> But, how does the "newbie" find us.......BEFORE they spend six months
racing
> online crashing everybody left and right?

> I don't know, there's no "single answer" to that problem. But, I do know
> that if those of us who have been racing online for a period of time just
> "ignore" the issue.....race only in our little "groupie" leagues and don't
> contribute our knowledge and experience to the general sim racing
> community....the "newbie" will never get the message! And, online "pick
up
> racing" will continue to be a complete waste of time! That's too bad.....

> I wish that every racing simulation software.....produced.....and sold in
> the world ......would have the following message plastered across the face
> of the manual, the CD....and the back cover of the "game box".......

> ****BEFORE you attempt online racing in multiplayer mode......go to
> www.XXXnewOnlineRacer.com and read the FAQ list "BEFORE" you attempt
> Multiplayer racing. You must not only read it....you must be capable of
> doing and performing in a manner consistent with the FAQ
instructions......
> during a Multiplayer race with other drivers....absolutely everything the
> FAQ suggests to you and requires of everyone who races online.****

> Of course, not only does this URL not exist....as you probably know if you
> are a newbie and just clicked it......but that "message" doesn't appear on
> one single game box cover or sim racing manual or CD cover in existence
> right at the moment! The developers don't consider it to be their
> responsibility to "moderate" the quality of Multiplayer play in their
> software....and they are right about that (although there a few things
they
> could do that would help the situation.....a few have made
attempts....while
> Papyrus was one of the worst at doing this at one time....I now think they
> are one of the best). It is our responsibility.....as leaders and
> "experienced" sim racing drivers to do this.

> So......to follow my own advise....I am going to "promise" to myself and
> those members of the sim racing community that regularly visit and "post"
on
> this newsgroup.......to "bring this issue up".....to educate and
> help....every "newbie" I detect....who makes a post on this newsgroup.
That
> should cover the few hundred that don't make posts...but just read the
> postings....... too!

> Here's my first contribution:

> *****Regarding the N4 Function Keys access during online racing******

> Unless you have your keyboard mounted on your race controller...with all
> necessary "keys" within a few inches of your fingers ....and you can
> activate them "by touch" without looking at your hand, or the
> keyboard.....or, they are mapped to your wheel buttons....then you are
going
> to wreck a lot....and "wreck" the rest of us along with you. Please don't
> race online, please! You could get away with "hunt and peck" for the
> "display commands"......in N3 (maybe....because the car physics were much
> more "foregiving").........but that will never be the case in N4. NEVER!

> *****Did anybody pick up on Darrel Waltrip's "story" during the FOX Sports
> broadcast of the Goody Dash yesterday at Daytona? He was kidding about
his
> crew chief having to get into the back seat of his race car......run laps
at
> Tally at 220 mph...in private testing....no other cars were on the
> track.....so his crew chief could record the "readings" on the dash
> instruments. Darrel said, "Hell, I can't take my eyes of the road at
those
> speeds long enough to look at the tach even.....except maybe to tell you
> what general direction its pointing....like "up" or "down".......no way I
> can give you the readings of all the dash instruments.....have you tried
to
> drive this sucker and do it?" Another comment was made about trying to
see
> how far the rpm's fall off when in the turns at Daytona........nobody says
> they can take their eyes off the track....especially when drafting....long
> enough to look at the tach!

> ******************So My Fellow Sim Racers**********************

> If the best stock car drivers in the world can't even look at the tach on
> their dash...right in front of their faces.......what the heck makes you
> think you can search around for your keyboard's F1 key.......and not
> crash........taking a few of us with you?

> Make yourself a simply mounting bracket (out of aluminum 1" strap you can
> buy at any hardware store in the world) for your keyboard mount.......and
> use it when online racing. Or....map the important function keys to your
> race controller wheel buttons...if it supports that option, or use
> headphones and a voice command program like "Game Commander." And if you
> are drafting me at Tally, or Daytona, or Michigan, or Charlotte.....or
> racing behind me at Sears Point or Watkins or Martinsville....please don't
> ever take your eyes off my car...even for a split second! And, unless
> you've been running behind me for 5 to 10 laps....and are totally sure of
> exaclty where and when my braking points are located on every
> turn.....please maintain a 5 car length distance between us until you are
> ready to make a "clean" pass on me! I would appreciate it.....so would
> everyone else who happens to be in front of you!

> And, if you think a good way to pass someone is by outbraking them into a
> tight turn....or **any turn** for that matter.......then please don't ever
> race in the real world....because if you don't get killed on the race
track
> first.....you'll be killed by your fellow competitors in the
> pits.......eventually! No matter who you are.....this applies to Jeff
> Gordon as much as it applies to "Johnny Newbie"......if you wreck someone
> attempting an "outbraking" pass.....its your fault...and you will get your
> butt kicked by the person you wrecked...and then the other competitors
after
> he is done with you!

> If you are new to online racing......here's a couple of "hints."

> If you follow some of these basic rules of racing....don't wreck people
and
> so forth. You can race with me anytime you want. I don't care how fast
you
> are....I care only how "safe" you are driving at any speed! You can also
> ask me questions and pick my brain as much as you want.....and I'll do
> everything I can to help you be a better, faster online sim driver. If,
you
> ever encounter me in online racing.....unless I tell you that I am unable
to
> help you at that moment.....and I refuse to help you or answer your
> questions, or at least get my email address to you so I can do it
> later.......then please come into this newsgroup and post my name ....LOUD
> and CLEARLY.....as to the fact that I would not help you! That's a
"ditto"
> for any other experienced sim racer you run into that refuses to help you.

> Regards,

> Tom Pabst
> tmpa...@home.com

...

read more »

by **GMpartsdud** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:56:24

TEN had its group of squirrels that wound up there from begging mom or dad
long enough, and getting them to pay for the membership. It really wasnt
THAT bad.
WON was a whole other nightmare. Hordes of folks buying their kids
computers (a.k.a "The Electronic Babysitter"), and picking up N3. With N3
came free online racing..Yahoo, squirrels galore !
I hope youre not surprised by the influx of impatient folks who wanna rip
the box open and become a world famous pavement pilot. Ranked , PW'ed races,
and screening drivers have always been the S.O.P for clean racing, and
probably will be for quite a while.
Papy used to do a good job of explaining driver etiquet, but i think the
best rule for newbies to gauge when to jump online would be when the can run
side by side with the AI cranked up to at least 90 or 95%. I'll be honest, i
havent run a driving sim since back in October. Now that N4 is out, im not
gonna be jumping online until i've remember how to keep my shit straight
again. (man, have i gotten rusty..damn flight sims)..
My best advice if ya get dumped by a newbie, and havent had an aneurism or
popped a *** vessel, explain to him what he/or she did wrong and hope they
remember and pass the word on to friends.
You do bring an excellent point up, that posting about online track manners
and procedure is the easiest way to keep the new folks in the know. I'll bet
a weeks pay that Online racing/leauge sites also have a page dedicated to
informing folks of general and specific rules of the road. Perhaps they can
even post links on this thread, cause im too tired to do it myself right
now.
Alright, i've blathered on enough. Dammit woman, wheres my meat and
potatoes ?!?
GMpartsguy

by **Alan Bernard** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:25:28

No, not a whiner-- just not thinking realistically. Think of all the people
in the world, half of whom are dunces. Think then of those who race online.
Half of these are dunces. So it stands to reason that if you're looking for
a pick up race, half of those you race with will just be concerned with
wrecking and goofing off.

Only viable solution, as always, is to find a core group and race with them.
You have no other choice: it's the way the world is and it's not likely to
change any time soon.

Alanb

by **Tim** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:35:56

The people you're trying to reach aren't reading this, Tom.
They're not saavy enough to access Usenet. Hell, you'd be lucky if
they're smart enough to get to the Sierra N4 message board.

The sim is new, NASCAR is extremely popular, and everyone within 50
miles of a Best Buy now has a PC and net access.
It doesn't take much thought to break this down to the lowest common
denominator -yahoo's online for at least the next 3 months.
Maybe in 7 or 8 months, the new-ness of N4 will have worn out, and the
number of purists will surpass the dopes.

If you can't handle the crash and bash that goes along with "instant
racing", get a group of guys from here and run only online password
protected races. It's not as convenient as just logging on and racing
50 laps, but it seems to have worked for GPL.

Tim

by **Alexpe** » Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:02:20

do drivers need to undertake NASCAR license tests to run in BGN or WC?

In IRL i know they take rookie tests to see if they are quick enough, and in
F1 you need a super license to race (you need to rack up something like
500miles of testing at a quick pace with consistency over 3 days i think),
and i remember Nigel Mansell complaining that CART needed a super license
after some guy (could have been Dennis Vitolo) landed on top of Mansells car
in Indycar in 93 or 94. Anything similar in NASCAR?

Itd make online races a bit better i think....you wanna race online? gota
get your license :)

or different grades of license for online, a rookie zone (scary), a novice
zone where people have run say 20 laps offline in a set time, then
progressively harder tasks for access to races.

sounds good to me

Pez

Tom Pabst <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message