As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was
regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a
deriving experience is F1RS / GP2?
Thanks
email incognito. Remove the z to reply.
As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was
regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a
deriving experience is F1RS / GP2?
Thanks
email incognito. Remove the z to reply.
Realism in TOCA is nil! It's fun, but no more than a glorified arcade racer.
Check out the demo, it's the same as the full game but only 2 laps of one
track.
>Thanks
>email incognito. Remove the z to reply.
That's a rather casual answer, have you driven in a TOCA race? Considering
the exact duplication of the tracks and cars and the fairly realistic
handling I think nil as a score on realism is a little harsh. Yes it's far
from perfect but Nil?
It's always going to be a subjective answer but asking for an assesment on
realism from anyone other than someone actually involved in the real thing
is always going to lead to wildly varying 'informed opinions'. Best try it
yourself.
Charlie
> >As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was
> >regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a
> >deriving experience is F1RS / GP2?
If they put some more work down intp it, it could have been a sim. It's
definitely arcade, but I enjoy it anyway:)
Matt
Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
>It's always going to be a subjective answer but asking for an assesment on
>realism from anyone other than someone actually involved in the real thing
>is always going to lead to wildly varying 'informed opinions'. Best try it
>yourself.
I got TOCA a couple of days ago and have really been enjoying it. I'm
from the U.S. and don't normally get to watch BTCC racing, but
thankfully Speedvision carries it and they were re-running the Croft
race from 1997. I was very impressed with how well the game captures
the sport. I do feel that some traditional 'sim' elements are missing
(setups, etc), but I am not in a position to say whether or not that's
correct to the real thing, because its a different Formula than what
we typically buy.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
I just love this...another classic example of people treating
sim/arcade like a lightswitch. Its not a toggle, guys, its a scale.
Right now I'd say it leans more in the direction of a sim than an
arcade game (consider arcade=Sega Daytona, for example). But of
course I wouldn't peg the needle at the limits of either sid.e
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
> Realism in TOCA is nil! It's fun, but no more than a glorified arcade racer.
> Check out the demo, it's the same as the full game but only 2 laps of one
> track.
If Codemasters were to take the game engine in TOCA to the next level,
they could make an *excellent* sim out of it. As it stands, the first
copy of TOCA I see on a store shelf will be coming home with me.
--
Neil Yeatman
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA
> >It has pretty good track modelling and graphics, the AI suck, no
> set-up
> >options, the car behaves quite good until you start doing tight
> turns.
> >Traction is too good, etc.
> You know, I thought traction felt 'too good' as well, but then I
> watched the real thing in television and I couldn't believe the
> cornering speeds. I went back to the game after the race and noted
> that the cornering speeds seemed pretty close.
Want to philosophise? Sega Daytona is a sim. It simulates racing cars,
albeit very poorly.
I think a toggle is quite right here, TOCA has a lot of details that
makes it an arcade game, which NASCAR, ICR GP2 etc have not, like:
*No way of destroying your car when crashing
*Cheat modes (Driving a Tank shooting opponents, a Pink Caddilac,
Disable the AIs so you don't crash etc.)
*No way of ruining the engine, wearing out the tires.
I could go on picking on details, but that\s not the point.
If you'd like a scale, I'd say rate realism. Arcade means nothing more
than a place where there are computer games.
Matt
Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
OK guys! TOCA is reasonably OK at the physics, but as a game it leaves a lot
to be desired.
1) the unlocking of the tracks until you do well on the previous one is
plain silly!
2) no setups therefore no chance of improving your car's performance.
3) no tyre problems, no sliding, no crash damage, etc etc.
4) most importantly, it is too damn easy! After only 1 or 2 attempts at each
circuit I was winning every race - and I don't consider myself to be any
kind of expert.
I watched the accident-marred Croft 1997 race on Saturday on
Speedvision and I thought that the game actually modelled this pretty
good. The big issue is whether or not you spin on pavement. You stop
fairly quickly on pavement, but if you get off the grass, I've taken
some severe cross country trips on the grass...wayyy out there.
Not all the BTCC cars are front wheel drive. The Audi is 4WD. And I
don't find much oversteer in 1st gear hairpins, but then I also take
almost every hairpin in 2nd gear <G>. I don't take Knockhill flat out
in fifth, but maybe that's just because I'm not confident enough yet.
The problem is you're picking and choosing what makes the game in its
entirety a 'sim'. Your criteria will differ from those of other
people, so there's no absolute here. Sega Daytona is often
characterized as an arcade game mainly because NO attempt was made by
the developers at modelling stock car performance, in addition to
various gameplay elements which sacrificed realism for arcade
playability.
So if I turn off damage in F1RS, ICR2 or NASCAR 2, I'm no longer
driving a 'sim'? Wow.
This is a major reach on your part. Game companies often put in these
kind of goodies, be it a 'sim' or an 'arcade game'. This criteria is
really a reach.
You can't ruin the engine in GP2 or F1RS. Are they not sims? And as
far as tire wear is concerned, how bad do you think these things go
off in the generally short races they run? I can understand some tire
wear being a nice attribute, particularly if you spin the car a lot or
lock up the brakes, but I'd guess that tire wear isn't near the issue
in touring cars that it is in Formula open wheel or stock car oval
sims.
That is *exactly* the point. You will pick 10 details and say they
mean for you its not a sim. I will pick 10 details and say they mean
that yes it is a sim. THAT is why this is not a toggle. My biggest
problem with the terms 'sim' and 'arcade' is that 'arcade' is one of
the nastiest smears you can hurl at a racing game if the developers
have made a point of going for realism. You're basically saying that
they failed at what they set out to do. And that one word throws
the baby out with the bathwater. If the game doesn't have a great
damage model, but the physics model is great -- and you believe a sim
has to have a great damage model, and then claim the thing is just an
arcade game, then those people that believe sim/arcade has to do with
the physics engine are going to think the thing has a rotten physics
engine. By simply creating an 'arcade' and a 'sim' box you simply
contribute to the oversimplification of these games and misinform
readers by imposing YOUR definition of a sim onto them, whether they
would agree or not.
Have you ever driven one of these touring cars around one of these
courses? How qualified do you feel to say that the physics model
isn't realistic? I know I'm not that qualified as I've never driven
one. I can say what feels right and what feels wrong, but then its
just my best guess. I do agree that there are many areas where TOCA
seemed to just say "not important-skip it". But that does NOT mean
that the game is an arcade game. It simply means that they didn't
deem it necessary to simulate some aspects to the nth degree,
particularly for such short races.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
So?
There's lots of sliding and crash damage. I would agree it seems not
to affect handling much at all.
Agreed. The AI qualifies much better than it races. Even when you
run down the leader, its easy to do because he tends to get stuck
behind lapped cars while you find an opening and sail past. The AI
and qualifying definitely need a tweak.
I still find it a very fun game, though.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Wow. Thanks for all that. Much better quality debate than is often found in
ngs.
Info and opinions all appreciated greatly. I have the 2 tck demo of TOCA - how
much smoother does this play in 3dfx? P166mmx, 32meg, Millenium.
Thanks
> >1) the unlocking of the tracks until you do well on the previous one is
> >plain silly!
> Yes, it is. Probably had something to do with co-developing it for
> the Playstation. At least there's a publicly available list of
> cheats. Unlock 'em and forget about the limitation.
> >2) no setups therefore no chance of improving your car's performance.
> So?
> >3) no tyre problems, no sliding, no crash damage, etc etc.
> There's lots of sliding and crash damage. I would agree it seems not
> to affect handling much at all.
> >4) most importantly, it is too damn easy! After only 1 or 2 attempts at each
> >circuit I was winning every race - and I don't consider myself to be any
> >kind of expert.
> Agreed. The AI qualifies much better than it races. Even when you
> run down the leader, its easy to do because he tends to get stuck
> behind lapped cars while you find an opening and sail past. The AI
> and qualifying definitely need a tweak.
> I still find it a very fun game, though.
> Randy
> Randy Magruder
> Contributing Reviewer
> Digital Sportspage
> http://www.digitalsports.com
> >By stating that I found traction "too good", my reference was to the
> >feel, not by comparison to real-life speeds. The car gives no
> intention
> >of controlled sliding/four-wheel drifts. Either you stick to the
> line,
> >or you spin out.
> I disagree. I can take very many lines through the corner and not spin
> out. And there is definitely a sliding feel. My sense of the
> traction being "too good" is that when you go into a corner too hot,
> rather than the car pushing straight ahead when you turn the wheels,
> the car pushes to a point, then radically turns towards where you
> wanted it to go, and either magically grips or spins. This seems to
> depend on the bumpiness of that particular section of track, and I've
> often found that altering myline from the 'ideal' line to the best
> surfaced line makes it easier to 'feel' the traction in the corner.
The Audi was 4wd, yes, the BMW was RWD, but the rest were, and now all
are, Front wheel drive:)
?Examples?
Haven't tried F1RS yet, but I' ve blown engines, gearboxes etc in GP2
several times. No, you can't over-rev like in NASCAR, but I've had nice
looking smoke puffs develop into bonfires...
Well, considering that all the major teams have been tyre testing At
Jerez, Spain the whole winter, and the fact that tyre wear is even more
visible in a FrWD car, I think it should be. If you go to the races,
these guys have qual tyres, and several compounds to choose from in the
races (also several brands). The first few laps are always great,
because the front tires heat up really quickly, and the rears don't, so
there are many hairy moments..
Gotta go,
Matt
--
Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
The "grip/slip" decision seems to be just that, an on-off switch, and
in fact you can go in hot to a corner and apply correction before the
car has even started to slide and you'll make it through okay.
Having lapped Knockhill many times I'd say it isn't particularly well
modelled in TOCA, but well up to the standard I'd expect given the
accuracy of the rest of the product. Okay, it isn't flat in fifth in
real life, but IMO the point of TOCA was not to recreate every detail
of BTCC racing, but to capture the atmosphere and feeling of the race.
The bumping and barging is done very well, as is the need to have the
car on the limit at all times.
Following on from what you said, this is a commercial decision. If
Playstation customers won't buy it without cheat codes or Pink
cadillacs then get 'em in there. AFAI recall NASCAR2 had some
additional stuff in there on the PSX.
TOCA is far from being a sim, but then it's a long way from Outrun and
Daytona USA as well. FWIW I think it's really great fun, and probably
the most enjoyable racer I have that is not an out and out sim. It
certainly beats stuff like Ultimate Race into a***ed hat - what a
waste of time that download was.
Cheers!
John