rec.autos.simulators

Presuming they do use the GPL engine - and there's now no valid reason
why they shouldn't - they could include features which would tritely
stand out above the rest of the Nascar series and making most other
racing titles seem like toasted brownies.

Lying awake in bed last night I jotted down a few ideas which I
thought they should include in Nascar 4. Feel free to let me know what
you think.

a)      "Driver hands, steering wheel and gear stick" - We already
have this in Grand Prix Legends, so it's certainly possible for them
to include it. Best of all it would put an end to the ugly static
***pit we've had in each previous Nascar title.

2)      "Fully working pit crew" - I'm sure many will agree that this
is something which could, and perhaps should, have been included in
Grand Prix Legends. No Nascar race is complete without pit stops,
often due to damage rather than strategy. The 2D images of the pit
crew in Nascar 3 make pitting a rather unrealistic and boring job.

3)      "Realistic weather effects " Not all races can take place in
the perfect sunshine. Whilst there is an option to enduce wind effects
in Nascar 3, it's no very good, and besides the car performing a
little worse when you're heading into the wind, there's not much else.
Rainfall, clouds and a slight fog would all help add to the
atmosphere. These weather effects certainly helped make TOCA and TOCA
2 more fun.

4)      "Damaged car parts remain on track" - When cars in Nascar 3
are damaged and pieces fall off, they usually disappear a few moments
later, and whilst it's true that in real racing the yellow flag and
pace car would come out to slow down the remaining cars so that safety
guards could remove the dangerous items, I still wouldn't mind
approaching a pile-up knowing that I had to avoid debris as well as
the damaged cars.

5)      "Damage to walls" - What happens when you hit a wall in N3?
Besides the damage you receive, only a very unrealistic looking
'spark' appears to tell you you're scraping the wall. Nascar
Revolution went one better here, by removing paint from your car and
keeping it on the wall instead. Scraping paint off like this looks and
feels much better, but still isn't quite good enough. What about
actual damage to the walls as well? Who can forget Nigel Mansell's
CART accident which put a hole through the outside concrete wall? (I
mention that one not because it was very good, but because it's the
only one I have on video) It's great to pass a corner in N3 and see
the tyre tracks from where you or another car previously spun. This
would be taking it to the next level.

6)      "Fully working tractor" - In N3, if you blow your engine and
can't make it back to the pit, your spotter tells you that the tow
truck is on the way. Of course, we don't actually see it, cos' just
like in real life it's invisible. Well, I'm sure this is what Papyrus
would like us to believe, but it could certainly be done better. Show
me the tractor! Show me the tractor! Show me the tractor! - putting on
a very 'Jerry Maguire' style voice right now...

7)      "Detailed car damage" - TOCA 2 had the windows smashing fully
in a serious enough collision, and GPL had engines bleeding oil and
even fire. What does N3 give us? A few bits of litter left behind and
a puff of smoke of your blow the engine. The new wheel-spin smoke was
a nice touch, but not enough of it was used and it didn't remain in
the air long enough to be 'Days of Thunder' like, which Papy said it
would be. A trail of slick oil coming from the car, which would then
have an effect on the cars behind, would be awesome!

8)      "Menu system" - Above all else, please get rid of the cheesy
N2/N3 menus and garage and replace it with something fresh and better
to use. I for one am not very keen on having to use the mouse to
navigate around (and I'm sure I'm not alone, as this was discussed in
another thread a while ago). Some keyboard shortcuts would be
appreciated.

9)      "Breaks and wheel-spin" - I love being able to press the
breaks just enough that only ONE of the wheels locks up in GPL and not
the other. It's a sign of good programming and a great physics engine.
I wouldn't mind being able to lock up the front wheels in N4 either.
We might not be able to see it as in GPL, but you could certainly feel
it, and the replays would show it.

10)     "More views" - The standard three views in N3 really aren't
very good. They're the same as the ones from N1 and N2. GPL had less
views as standard, but you could add more being editing one of the INI
files, which was an added bonus. If all the views which we have access
to in the replay, such as television 1 & 2, bumper, behind and best of
all, roll-cage, were available instantly I know I'd be in racing
heaven. I find television angles especially useful and fun.

Looking over this message I see that I have appeared to put down
Nascar 3 somewhat. Please don't think that. Nascar 3 is one of my
favourite sims, and I play it almost as much as I do GPL, but I am
well aware (as I'm sure are all of you) of how it could be improved.

Let me know what you think...

Neo

Not this again.  In the same vein, why not animated crowds, television
crews, blimps, and any other resource-hogging non-race-related gizmo
to "improve" the on-track experience?

Comment on the interface is good.  Still, I cannot believe a list of
improvements to this series could not include a single reference to
the AI.  I could care less about cosmetic improvements to the game
(paint left on walls, etc).  This is about the only area in which the
series has improved from version to version.  I am hoping that Papy
greatly improves the way the AI behaves on the track as well as the
physics model.  Any graphical improvements are a distant concern.  

A fully animated 3D***pit should be no problem if they use the GPL
engine. But I do hope that they make the driver'S hands, steering wheel
and gear stick optional, just like they did in GPL - there are many who
don't feel the need to have a second set of hands and an additional
wheel on their screen.

Agreed. A NASCAR game would also be more accessible to europeans if they
could display a working pit crew. It's an exciting element of the Sport,
but seems rather dull in N1-N3, especially for newbies.

Fog and different lighting for the tracks would add a great element of
variety to the game. But I also like the approach that magnetic fields
have done with RC2000 - they modelled each Rally Stage for a certain
time of day and weather. You probably can reach the best visual realism
if you do it like that. I'm a euro-guy, so I may be wrong but AFAIK
NASCAR doesn't race in the wet or do they ?

This is a very good point, hope they will have the time to put this in.
In GPL the only debtis that can fall off your car are the wheels, and
you can't hit them when they bounce across the track.

I think this is a rather unimportant detail, but It would be nice to
actually "trade paint" with other drivers. Enabling damage to walls or
trackside objects (even if it'S just by use of textures) might be not
too friendly on the resources thou. So please make it optional.

Good Point.

Yes!, although the effects of oil on the track might be something that
will have to wait for the next generation physics model.

I actually like the menu system in both NASCAR3 and GPL. Using the mouse
to navigate menus is the most natural way to do it on a PC. The Gamepad
friendly Menu systems of RC2000 and TOCA are a pain IMO. If anything,
add keyboard shortcuts to the menus but otherwise keep them.

IIRC this is a known limitation of the old N2/99 physics - locking
wheels will be most certainly featured in N4. Have you seen the early
Video of NASCAR3 with the GPL Engine ? IIRC there's a car spinning
because of too much wheelspin.

I wouldn't mind if they kept the system of having a realistic***pit
view and or two Arcade views. It would be great to have a option for
servers that could enforce a certain view or at least save some
information  on the driving view in the replays.

Good Post, I hope some Members of the papyrus staff read this board and
take these points into consideration.

Alex

Later,
John

true breakdowns as opposed to "something's turned loose in the motor":
brakes that fail, a gearbox that won't go into 3rd, a water pump goes
out, ignition box quits, engine problems that aren't an instant "day
over" such as a dropped cylinder, sucking a valve so that when you let
off the gas, there's a huge puke of smoke....

improved A.I. that will RACE with you: give me a computer driven car
that isn't afraid to bump draft! AI that knows where you are and
doesn't stuff you in the wall coming out of turns because you happen
to be in their programmed line, lots of room for improvement in this
area.....

an actual garage area that you can drive the car to for repairs after
a bad crash - if it can be fixed and get me back out for those points,
dang it let me take it behind the wall and work on it..

you mentioned better damage, I'm gonna 2nd that: better, realistic
damage! tear up the sides, the roof (that means FLIPS) I want to see a
car come apart when it gets hit or slams into the wall, I want wrecks
that look like an ESPN replay, not the cookie cutter same every time
damage it has now (it's great, don't get me wrong, I was totally
impressed with N1 but I long for a devastating, car scatterin', wipe
out)

optional, well done sun glare.... this was originally considered for
the GPL based version they were working on, I think it would be a nice
touch....

and finally, the ability to climb out of the car and stomp the ***
out of another driver after an uncalled for wreck..... (ok, maybe not
but it would be fun on ocassion <G>)

--
-----------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~morganv/
-----------------------------------

Dean

How about GLARE ON THE WINDSHIELD????

We've all seen the in car views on the tube where the driver's vision is
completely obscured for a couple of seconds when a race is running into the
late afternoon.   It would be a challenge to be sure.  

(Don't use NO***in E-mail)

You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee,
Vigilantes Of Love

snip

This is really not necessary, would bog down too many "weaker" systems. Eye
candy only.

More eye candy.

When was the last NASCAR race you saw take place in the rain?  They are
experimenting with wipers and treaded tires for road courses though. See
response to #9 below.

Good one.

Good idea, but more eye candy, more trouble than its worth.

More eye candy.

Good idea, oildowns would require too much "other" eye candy to work
correctly, though. (track crew, oildry, more yellow laps, etc)

The menu system works fine as is.

I don't do open wheel but I'll take a stab and say that stock cars are much
heavier than your typical GP cars, lockups would only occur on road courses
most likely. There are only 2 of those in use and thats 2 too many for heavy
cars like stockers as it is now.

You really only need 1 veiw in a SIM anyway, anything else is arcade. More
eye candy.

I don't think you're bashing so much as looking for a prettier arcade game.
My 2 cents.
kj

--
-----------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten

http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
-----------------------------------

Gunner
Gunner

I kind of take a neutral position on this item - while a 3d pitcrew would be
very cool (a la Daytona USA by Sega) it would likely be bad on
resources...but if it could be done well, go for it!!

NASCAR doesn't race in the rain - but that's what would make weather so much
cooler.  Remember that race (Atlanta IIRC?) when Jeff Burton wrecked and
won - both thanks to the rain?  NASCAR always waits a while when the rain
starts, as sometimes it is just a one-time burst.  Burton spun or got caught
up in a wreck that was rain-related, and they went yellow while evaluating
the race.  Burton held onto first at the line, and paced around in a heavily
damaged car.  When they redflagged the race, he was still first - and the
winner!!!  Adding rain would make pit strategies change, racing styles
change, and the challenge of fighting the car when the first drops hit.
Then, if the race wasn't 1/2 over and it got rained out for the day, you'd
finish the race up the next day.

Another good idea.  You'd have more cars pitting due to slow tire leaks -
another thing not modeled in any NASCAR sim.

Well, the damage to walls idea could be important.  Say someone augers in
pretty hard going into turn 1 at the Brickyard, but the wall seems to be
pretty much OK.  Then when you blow a tire and slam into almost the exact
same spot, the wall gives way, increasing the time in the caution (or do
they red-flag it?) and decreasing the likelyhood your car will go on.

Kinda like the pit crew though - possibly another resource hog, but would be
quite nice.

Maybe cars could have the parts falling off - in many a NASCAR or
NASCAR-style race a car was black-flagged because a hood was coming loose
and threatening to fly away or some other part was falling off.  In no
previous NASCAR sims can you be black-flagged for anything other than
pit-speeding and passing under yellow, wheras you can be blackflagged for
mechanical problems as well.

You can break the rear traction and even get it sliding pretty good, but
locking up the brakes is definitely needed.

--
Kirk Lane


ICQ: 28171652
BRT #187

"Yeah you won't find me
I'm going MIA
Tonight I'm leaving
Going MIA
Getting lost in you again
Is better than being known"
                     -Foo Fighters, "MIA"

I personally hate the***pit view as I have no feedback from the car, no feel
from the g-forces, etc., no ability to see more than just a few feet to each
side.  I feel the arcade views can help compensate for some of these flaws with
computer sims.  Keep F-10 please.  :)

Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited
http://www.racesimcentral.net/