rec.autos.simulators

by **Gerry Aitke** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 07:43:08

> It is still open to question whether this is a good thing to do in a real
> race, where fuel mileage and brake life could be important. Yes I know MS
> is doing it and he can be quite fast and he has xx world championships but
> that still doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing to do. The question I
> have is whether the faster laptimes are offset by having to carry more fuel
> or pit more often. Who is to say other than the teams themselves? For all
> we know MS could still have won all those races by driving with more normal
> technique. Note too that this year he has frequently been outqualified.
> Has he slowed down, or is it because he has to carry more fuel? Not long
> ago during a Trans-Am race I was watching, Derek Daly made the comment that
> they had made a lot of study over the years about how to conserve fuel, and
> the only thing which really worked was to get off the throttle a little
> earlier on the way in to a turn. If you are overlapping gas and brake you
> are burning more fuel per lap. Depending on the type of race and the pit
> strategy employed, you might get away with it and you might not.

> As for it working in karts, I guess it depends on what class. The lower
> classes have rear brakes only, so overlapping throttle and brake is
> pointless.

It works, but not in the same way.

--

Gerry Aitken

...and a friend shall lose a friend's hammer -- Book of Cyril, chapter
6, verse 16

by **alex** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 13:23:30

I have one foot on the clutch and another on the throttle
- turning the car around is not the only use for the handbrake.

Alex.

by **Allstarn** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:23:07

I'll see if i can do a quick translation....

It might take a few hours tho, i have other stuff to do.

Allstarnz

by **Joachim Trens** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:17:01

Why are you so convinced that those '67 F1 drivers never used this
technique? Or if your statement is limited to the Lotus 49, then why would
it definitely not be feasible in that particular car?

Of course I don't know what those '67 F1 drivers did, but I wouldn't
consider it impossible that some of them used this technique, depressing
both throttle and brake using just the right foot. This is exactly what
Walter Roehrl claimed he was doing in his Rallye car, and I don't think he
was just bragging. He said he's depressing both brake and throttle, both of
which he had built-in very near to each other specifically for this purpose.

Couldn't this have been done in those '67 F1 cars as well?

And while I'll gladly concede that your approach to realism is even more
purist than mine (as I'm willing to make concessions for affordable
mainstream computer controller equipment like shifter buttons and dual-pedal
units and still call it realism), I don't buy the thought that those ancient
F1 cars would have broken down under the strain. Their tires' service life
was a lot longer, and the drive strain components were made out of pretty
good steel. Considering what we did to humble Volkswagen Beetles offroad in
the early 70's, I'm very willing to believe that some moderate simultaneous
use of throttle and brake would not have posed the least longevity challenge
to these cars. Because obviously, it _would_ have been moderate, considering
the purpose of maintaining a precarious balance between various powers
affecting the car. And the cars in those days weren't made to last just one
race, like nowadays.

But you were not the only one claiming that this driving technique is
unrealistic, and others didn't limit that claim to the 49 Lotus. Pez for
example claimed not too long ago that this driving technique would damage
today's cars rapidly, unless I remember this incorrectly. But the article
clearly shows that this is not the case at least for the F1 cars, and your
own experience with carts shows that it doesn't damage carts either. So my
posting this article didn't go exclusively, and not even mainly in your
direction. It went in a general direction ;-)

Achim

Well like I said to Jason
...
...

by **Pickax** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:50:38

IIRC, several years ago there was an article in OnTrack that discussed
Schumacher's driving techniques and mentioned that he worked the throttle
under braking to keep the exhaust gases going over the diffuser, I assume to
keep downforce at the rear. I can't remember if it was when he was at
Benetton or Ferrari though.

Pickaxe

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:46:13

And the point is.....?

--
ed_

> Yes, this is precisely what it says <g>

> Achim

> ..
> > I think it says that Schuey is driving in an unrealistic manner by using
> > gas and brake simultaneously throughout the turns... :)
> ...

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:01:41

"Joachim Trensz" said:

I would like to see Schumacher do the very same thing in a '67 Grand Prix
car. The thing wouldn't last 2 laps.
The reason why he "get's off with it" now - is because the technology has
evolved to such a high level that it's feasable. Right up to the early
*90's* the story was veeeeery different. When's the last time you saw a guy
retire 'cause of fading brakes? Or even with something as simple as engine
problem... (okey this still happens but not nearly as frequent as it did.)
Today fly-by-wire software-controlled systems is quite different from the
steel gas-wire "direct drive" that F1 had right up to the eary 90's, and
that most of us *still* uses.

To me "realism" is a natural reflection of what your trying to simulate..
and you can bet your behind that if the drivers of the 60's, 70's or 80's
had been able to "get away" with that kind of driving - they'd do it.
Racing drivers are *very* competetive people and if they could get an ende
by doing something "out of the blue" - they do it for sure.

--
ed_

by **Joachim Trens** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:50:34

Read this thread and you'll understand.

Achim

...

by **Joachim Trens** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:49:54

Says who? Remember that this technique isn't a leadfoot matter, it's
something subtle, meant to maintain a precarious balance. In fact, so subtle
many drivers can't even do it, apparently. I'd also like to remind you that
even those small carts don't break when you use this technique, and they
didn't in the mid-70's either, because that's when I had my 'carting'
high-times.

But it isn't my intention to assert that the '67 drivers used this
technique, as the arguments the assertions that this driving technique were
unrealistic were based on in general were neither limited to GPL-related
circumstances, nor to the physical impossibility of doing it with a three
pedal setup.

The article shows that this technique is a valid driving technique, and
that's why I posted the URL. For my purpose, discussing whether '67 F1
drivers used it or not is moot because of what I said above, and because
nobody here knows how they drove, and which techniques they used, or can
even assess whether the hardware would have been up to it.

As for the term realism, that's a discussion I'm not going to enter either,
we've had it so often. Each of us 'realism' fans thinks that his
interpretation of realism is the right one, but in fact, neither of us
really simulates reality. We all do it within the bounds we personally deem
sensible.

Achim

...
...

by **Allstarn** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:42:19

Sorry it's a bit loose and grammatically crap, I don't have the time or
effort to do a better job right now. Some of it might seem a bit ambiguous,
but most of that is the articles fault, not mine. Anyhow anything is better
than Babel Fish, especially for something as technical as this....

Cheers
Allstarnz

PS if anyone can do a better job, please change it :-)

=======================================

Schumacher: Impressive analysis of his driving style

von Fabian Hust
30. August 2003 - 16:23 Uhr

In the past few years Michael Schumacher has again and again shown his
exceptional class in Formula 1. The Ferrari driver belongs to the
best formula 1 divers of all times, and that is not without reason, which
the magazine F1 Racing can demonstrate in a one off analysis. With it can
be shown by the telemetry data for the Italian Formula 1 team, how the
German is unbelieveably sensitive and flexible with the accelerator and
brake pedals.

Especially noticeable is the comparison for the data of the 180 degree turn
is Suzuka, a circuit, which Michael Schumacher exceeds himself again and
again. Importantly in the telemetry Ruebens Barichellos driving style in
comparison to
that of Schumachers is 'simple' - in saying that 'Rubino' is
by no means a bad driver. The Brazilian gets on the brakes 15 metres
earlier when approaching a corner and above all uses either the brakes or
the accelerator. With the world champion is it something completely
different.

Michael Schumacher stays noticeably longer on the throttle than Barichello,
for that however with the use of the brakes at only 5% he begins to
stabilise with the actual correct braking manoeuvre of the hairpin [I
couldn't seem to make much sense of exactly what they were getting at here].
In the curve itself Barichello removes his foot completely from the
accelerator, Schumacher however gives continual throttle and 'plays' with
the brakes and throttle, in order to get the car as fast and stable as
possible.

In the exit of the curve itself Schumacher uses the brakes. During this
time, Rubens attempts to aid the car through removing his foot from the
throttle on the exit, this gives the German considerably more acceleration
and he balances his Ferrari with light braking. Overall on this corner the
champion is 25km/h faster than Barichello, who loses 0.3 seconds.

Next to the fact that Rubens Barrichello uses either his brakes or
accelerator and Michael in comparison frequently uses both pedals in
parallel, there is another striking difference. Schumacher mostly brakes
later in the curve and stabilises the car, in which he then accelerates
lightly, which on first impressions would be counterproductive, but allows
for Schumacher to brake later without losing control of his car and allows
him to manoeuvre easily.

{ while Barichello brakes in a uniform way though the curve, Schumacher's
more sporadic braking style makes him faster [more technical details]. Such
manoeuvres allow MS to go 15km/h faster through the hairpin at Montreal than
RB. While MS gives 5 metres of no acceleration at apex of the curve, for RB
it's 10m [I'm too lazy to translate this more complicated paragraph]}

However there are downsides to this driving style. MS is much harder on his
parts the RB is. His front tyres get more quickly worn, because MS brakes
hard and drives quicker through the corners. This brought about a issues in
past races, where the MS couldn't use the softer tyre compound, whereas RB
could

The engine and the brakes are also worn more quickly, as MS simultaneously
brakes and accelerates. Also the fuel consumption of MS is higher than RB.
But when it comes to the crunch, like in Montreal, where the brakes were
over their limit, MS can completely change his driving style, and through
this look after his brakes. That's what a real world champion does.

by **Allstarn** » Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:43:58

I have reposted this from the actual message thread....