rec.autos.simulators

by **Greg Berge** » Wed, 06 Nov 1996 04:00:00

> Hi all,
> I have kind of a different take on this cheating controversy.
> I have to agree that hexing a setup is probably cheating but I
> think the problem here has to do with at least a couple of
> different issues.
> The first is translation. I think Julians' posts seem a bit more
> aggressive than they really are. His english is a bit halting (no
> offense Julian). And therein I think is a lot of room for misinterp-
> retation( God knows I'm good at that!) I believe that his early
> posts were just informing everyone that hexing is going on. I am more
> concerned about those who use it on a regular basis..that aren't
> talking!..perhaps those "fast" racers who Julian referred to as saying
> "be quiet".
> And that is the second. I think Julian is being regarded as the
> "poster boy" for cheating. But I'm pretty sure he didn't invent
> hexing of the camber, fuel etc. A lot of others , some who we respect
> as great drivers, are probably doing the same thing. It's frustrating
> not knowing who is doing it and Julian happens to be the focal point
> of that anger.
> Anyhow it all became a bit clearer when Julian inferred that he was
> not from this country.
> As for the posts declaring that we shouldn't assume someone is
> cheating because they're fast: all I can say to that is now there
> is a seed of doubt. Those who go fast know; those who aren't and have
> spent considerable time working on setups probably have their faith
> a bit shaken. Darrell is right in saying that we shouldn't assume
> speed=cheating but on the other hand what are we to think? You see
> a 15 year old who just got a computer two months ago, Nascar a month
> later blistering you lap after lap. It makes you wonder a lot of
> things. The worst thing for me is, now what speeds do I use as a
> benchmark for my own progress? Who is live or who is memor-hex?
> Finally, I think, at least from my limited contact, that Julian
> is one heck of a nice guy. And he is publishing a setup guide which
> I am very interested in.(I have an ancient post from Rhawn Black
> to the Sportsim Forum on Cserve about him writing a setup guide. Boy,
> I'd have liked to see that, but then Hawaii came along...rats!!)
> So at least he is willing to help others get faster, not only in
> Nascar but Indycar and GP2.
> I am not defending Julians' view of the gray area. But I do realize
> that without people pushing the techno limits we wouldn't have
> carsets, weigh-it programs, racelength changers, strength modifiers,
> and doing a character check I think Julian is more above the board
> than it might appear here.
> Thanks for the space and time.
> Regards,
> Greg
> Gavel on Hawaii

And for the most part, i agree with your feelings. Yes, I think that
we were all aware of cheating on hawaii. I don't think that anyone was
really that suprised when ed came out with the formal statement on it;
however, most of us (including me), I don't think, really have a decent
clue as to how widespread it is (as in actual % of people who do it).
It's just that Julian was rather pompous about the whole cheating
thing. I like to think that 99% of us who do race on hawaii do realize
that using the "grey" area to our advantage is wrong. Whether 99% of
people don't cheat, I seriously doubt. Maybe Julian really is a decent
guy? I don't know. The only exposure that I have of him, is his fairly
arrogant posts, as of late.
But, I don't know the guy.

~G

by **Mark McCue** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Sounds like HAL.

Why don't we invite him to come run in a HAL event? That is, of course,
if he'd be interested.

by **Luca Varan** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

I was looking for past articles about setups, and I find something which
I find funny.

> Hey now! The reason why I said I conquered the game is because I felt I was fast
> enough and know enough to hold my own!!

> Pity, really?? You must really think I am stupid or something. Tony, you really
> don't know who I am, or what I have been through "real" racing. You see, for the
> past couple years I have worked on a NASCAR Sportsman team and have a NASCAR Pit
> Crew's license. I also have a NHRA Driver's license to sub 9 sec in the quarter.
> I have been racing since I was 16. I have well over a decade of experience
> probably more than you will ever have!!

> I help out other circle and drag teams, not only with suspension, but tuning
> race engines, and of course builiding them!!

> BTW, I also "own" a business that specializes in high performance for cars and
> trucks. I do racecars, streetcars, restorations.. All the way from the ground up
> to drag or circletrack cars. As you can see I do this for living..

> Tony, I don't know about you, but in my area, I am usually called, "the Tuner or
> the Professor." Because of my ideas and theories..

> Ahh.. I am educated. I am an ASE Certified Master Technician, ASE Certified
> Machinist, and Mechcanical Engineering degree..

> :I think you would be particularly suited for drag racing, though.

> Anything else you like to speculate??

So, I thought, this must be a great guy to get tips from, and the thing about
setup in GP2 that he recently posted is great.

There is a little problem, though. The following is a not so recent article.

Subject: GP2: Setup Guide Tips..

Date: 1996/08/27

Organization: World

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators

I was wondering if there will be a setup guide in the works for GP2?? I just got
GP2, I must say the manual is very confusing..

I am completely lost in setting up a car, and reading the graphs..Could someone
please help me??
thanks
Julian Data #0004
Director of Information Technology, Consultant, "Ace" Test Driver
Offical Channel Operator (#ivgacsnc, on undernet)
International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc.
Http://www.ivga.com

IVGA Headquarters:
International Video Gamers Assoiciation, Inc. (IVGA)
14100 Walsingham Avenue
Suite 36
Largo, FL 34644
Voice: (813) 596-6661

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Aren't the two articles a bit contracdicting ?

Thanks for a good laugh :)

Bye,
Luca

by **Brian R. Tat** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

> So know all you have judged me as a cheater?? First of all, where are the
> rules??

I heard about this thread and finally broke down and learned out to
subscibe to
the newsgroup. After reading all the information on cheating, let me
put my
2 cents in as well.

I was one of the original 4 that started testing Hawaii 2 years ago so I
take
a deep intrest on what goes on since I have alot of time invested in the
development of it. I never really took part in any of the IVGA's
functions
because I don't feel that 2 laps makes a race nor racing the AI offline
with
a set or rules and then turning in results opens up a whole new can of
cheating
potential. That was why myself and so many others were so e***d that
Hawaii
was born and we could have a place to race each other without the worry
of
someone cheating to win.

Well, times have changed and human nature comes out. Guys want to be on
the top
of the list so bad, that they will even cheat their way to the top. If
you
cheated, did you really win? I feel that anything you do outside of the
program
that alters setups or the program itself and gives you an advantage is
cheating.
I'm very serious about my simulated racing as well but to say you have
to cheat,
flame slower drivers, etc to be really serious is off base. Just the
thought of
you and others are hacking the program to be the fastest has alot of us
that have
been on Hawaii for a good while now, re-thinking if we have really found
"our paradise"

The series I race in, we all compete to get as close to real racing as
possable
without the fear that you are getting beat by someone that is not a
better driver,
but a better program hacker. Alot of people from papyrus and testers
have put
alot of time into this but I'm afraid that a few hackers could ruin it
for everyone.

You can bet that papyrus knows of this thread and cheating and it will
be taken
care of before NRL rolls around. I don't think papyrus has much time to
watch
over Hawaii right now since it uses the "old" program which NRL will not
use. When
NRL rolls around with Nascar 2, I feel they will be ready for the
cheating aspect.

You are right there are really no rules that say you can't do the things
you have
done....as there is no rule that says you can't jingle the change in
your pocket
while someone is trying to sink a 5 foot put. It is just courtasy and
respect
for the people you race against. I don't cheat people to win and don't
expect
them to cheat me.

Brian

by **jwh..** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

>:>
>:> I am not fooling myself.. Just using my wits to get more speed.. I am
>:"real"
>:> racer, I actually do this for living..; ) There are setup programs are
>:there
>:> that do it for you!!! Just look around..
>:>
>:
>:Are you really Rusty Wallace? Sounds like him... :-)
>:
>Actually no.. I am not Rusty.. He's alright though; )
>take care
>:
>Julian Data
>IVGA Member #0004
>Director of Information Technology
>ACE Beta Tester and Driver of IVGA
>Channel Operator of #ivga on IRC (Undernet)
>Powered by IVGA Pro Gamer System P6-200 oc 233, 96MB EDO

So Julian, you value the FastLap program that claims to verify your
time..

Since you are currently the fastest at Bristol, here is a challenge
for you....

You tell me an elapsed time that is just a little faster than yours.
and I'll submit that exact Elapsed time to IVGA.

At that point you will realize that FastLap is meaningless due to
CHEATING.

Sure you can claim your times weren't cheating, but because one
cheats they ALL lose value.

As for rules, IVGA rules are fairly simple, it says (paraphrase):

1). If you cheat, they will catch you and not verify your times.

Conclusion: If you get a time verified then it wasn't cheating.

The difference between you and I is, you probably agree with the
conclusion.

I however know that If I drive a lap at 100mph, and it gets sent in as
140 mph, it was CHEATING.

So let me know that ET at Bristol, your is currently 0:14.962.

Mike

by **moti..** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

that statement right there is a bunch of bull shit.. for 2 reasons i can shoot that
down...

1. cause i dont qualify in the top5 cause i opt not to qualify and for people who race
with me they can pretty much say i am a well respected driver on hawaii. I dont believe
in qualuifing cause i like to run my own race if im that good ill get to the front
anyway and i usually do.....

2. how many time did you see dale earnhardt qualify in the back? many times and yet he
is one of the best drivers on the track...

as far as cheating and the so called grey area nascar has taken the grey area away...
and if you are cheating like that shows just how good of a driver you really are...

Brian Motisko
(Motisko)

by **Mike Marshal** » Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:00:00

> You are right there are really no rules that say you can't do the things
> you have done....as there is no rule that says you can't jingle the change in
> your pocket while someone is trying to sink a 5 foot putt. It is just courtesy
> and respect for the people you race against. I don't cheat people to win and
> don't expect them to cheat me.
> Brian

Could not be said more eloquently!
--
___ _ ____ _____ ____ ____ _____
| \ | | / _ \| ___| / ___| / _ \| __ \
| \ | || | | || |___ | | | | | || |__| |
| |\ \| || |_| ||___ || | | |_| || _ /
| | \ || _ | ___| || |___ | _ || | \ \
|_| \__||_| |_||_____| \____||_| |_||_| \_\

Go fast, Turn left! The reason to live!

by **Rhawn Blac** » Fri, 08 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Julian and everyone,

Unfortunately I don't have time to say much on this topic but I will say
the following. Not that it matters much to anyone in particular, but I
will never ever race with anyone who is caught cheating or admits to
adjusting the garage settings outside the limits of the sim. Now that I
think about it, that will include some of the drivers I've gotten to know
over the past two years. But out of respect for myself and all who I race
against, not to mention the time and hard work we all (top drivers and
those striving to be) put into going fast and making it last, I can not and
will not waste my time and money racing those who have altered their
setups. Sure there are no rules disallowing it, but my morals of clean
competition prevent me from accepting it. I would say "hope to race you
one day" as I love great competition and always wondered how you'd do in
one of the "pro" series' on Hawaii, but that desire is gone now, sadly.

Ripp
Virtual Velocity Racing

"Race for the Sake of the Race"

by **Richard Scot** » Fri, 08 Nov 1996 04:00:00

> >Your admission that you cheat -- oh, I'm sorry, use the grey area --
> >will drastically reduce the amount of people willing to race with you.

> I certainly won't, unless is under my terms.

As long as their are ways to cheat, People will. Hawaii should work to
prevent this.

I respect Julian's honesty in saying that he did this. However, Julian how
would you
feel if someone was faster than you based not on ability or set-up, but by
'hacking'
the program. In my opinion this is wrong. As wrong as a nascar team putting
one of those Rudd auto spoiler adjustors on.

Richard Scott

by **David J. Ran** » Fri, 08 Nov 1996 04:00:00

>Julian and everyone,
>Unfortunately I don't have time to say much on this topic but I will say
>the following. Not that it matters much to anyone in particular, but I
>will never ever race with anyone who is caught cheating or admits to
>adjusting the garage settings outside the limits of the sim. Now that I
>think about it, that will include some of the drivers I've gotten to know
>over the past two years. But out of respect for myself and all who I race
>against, not to mention the time and hard work we all (top drivers and
>those striving to be) put into going fast and making it last, I can not and
>will not waste my time and money racing those who have altered their
>setups. Sure there are no rules disallowing it, but my morals of clean
>competition prevent me from accepting it. I would say "hope to race you
>one day" as I love great competition and always wondered how you'd do in
>one of the "pro" series' on Hawaii, but that desire is gone now, sadly.
>Ripp
>Virtual Velocity Racing
>"Race for the Sake of the Race"

Well said. I'm getting ready to jump back onto Hawaii after a 5 month
absence due to a souncard with poor SB emulation. I originally got
started on Nascar Racing when a friend reccomended it, and have been
hooked ever since. He helped me with setups and taught me the fast
line around a few tracks, but I was never able to match his lap times.
He didn't cheat, he was just too good. Eventually, I started to
improve and spent LOTS of hours tweaking my setups, and finally
managed to beat his best time at Atlanta. Unfortunately, he got a
little miffed, and spent a few days improving his setup until he was
again faster than myself. But the point is, I was sky high when I
realized I beat his best time, and once I started racing on Hawaii,
nothing felt better than winning a race against other speed demons. My
once fast times are now a little above average, but rest assured, I
will be back, without cheating. Not that you should be worried or
anything. <G>

On another note, I gotta admit I was rather upset that someone using
the 2 lap Qualify would knock me off the pole and into second knowing
that it's much easier to be taken out at the start in a pickup race.

BTW, I've seen some incredible times posted for Atlanta around 189's.
Is this due to the weather being set at 120 degrees? Obviously,
considering the names that these times belong to, they obviously don't
cheat. But I don't want to get onto Hawaii with a setup for 85 when I
should be concentrating on 120. Or does my setup suck that much? <G>

David Range
DJR on Hawaii

by **Michael E. Carv** » Fri, 08 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Altering "setup" options that are not available via normal software
provided methods is cheating if one uses them when racing against others
that do not use such "unsanctioned" means.

Not only is this a cheat against all other "rule abiding" racers, it
cheats the person who uses unsanctioned tweaks. It is no longer a level
playing field so any "gains" are worthless. Any ill-gained victories
are "Hollow". Racing is a competitive sport and obtaining an edge via
unsanctioned means takes the competition out of the sport.

When one cheats, they are only playing with oneself. Anyone with
experience knows it's alot more fun with a partner. ;-)

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

by **Julian Da** » Fri, 08 Nov 1996 04:00:00

:I was looking for past articles about setups, and I find something which
:I find funny.
:
:Aren't the two articles a bit contracdicting ?
:
:Thanks for a good laugh :)
:
:Bye,
:Luca

Luca..

A couple of weeks ago, I was curious if there was a setup guide for Gp2. So can
I can take some of the time off of learning the setups for GP2. Evidentally,
there isn't. So I decided to study the setup procedures on my own. Sheesh..

I have learned alot about GP2 since then..; )

by **Shane Lans** » Sat, 09 Nov 1996 04:00:00

>: Darrel, there is cheating going on in Hawaii! And there are many forms

>Pete et al,
> I guess you misunderstood my point. I'll try to restate it clearer:
>There are people on Hawaii that do cheat, whether it be 2-lapping, using
>a tsr program, etc.

>The problem is, since there is cheating going on, many people, such as
>one of the original posters and a few followups, wrongly assume that
>everyone running super fast times (4-5mph faster than they are after
>they have spent countless hours on their setups) must be cheating.

.....Snip

To true. Lets face it some people are just plain hopelless at racing
sims. I have looked at a lot of those times and I can match and
sometimes better them. BTW I dont play Hawai as It would bankrupt me.
I have some mates who play at my house and to be honest they just cant
come to gripps know matter how much they try. As far as they are
concerned they are going well. I can see what they are doing wrong but
they dont listen which is what could be happening here. If i cant go
that fast and i know i am good then they must be cheating....:-) Dont
enter there head that they might just be plain hopless...

Shane Lansky

Hobart,Tasmania
Australia

by **Shane Lans** » Sat, 09 Nov 1996 04:00:00

On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:25:55 -0500, Mike Marshall

>> Cheating on Hawaii huh well I have been accussed of cheating On hawaii
>> because of my times at Mich and Dega by people on hawaii because I Qual. at
>> 198.1 to 198.2 at Dega and 193 to 194 at Mich.But I have to say yeas some
>> guys cheat at dega to get there times of 198.3 and above but as of the
>> other tracks I don't know how anyone can cheat at other tracks.What all the
>> guys I know do to get there times at the tracks are kinda like I do at Mich
>> it is fast for one lap and one lap only for qual. and after that it is ***
>> and they run a different setup in the race that runs fast aswell.All I can
>> say is quit worrying about if someone is cheating and find your own speed
>> because Dega is the only track you can cheat at in qual.And that doesn't
>> help in the race.

>> Robert GT86

>This guy admits to cheating at Tally? How lame! To excel above others
>in competition by your own merits gives the satisfaction. You must
>really feel like a loser when the rest of us out drive you in the race!
>Just my $.02

This happens all the time in all games over the net. The funny thing
is that the lamers who cheat actually think they are good when they
win and boast how good they are.
Just my $.02 worth to all cheaters out there. If you have to cheat to
win then you really should not be playing at all. Must feel real low
if you still lose though....:-)

Shane Lansky

Hobart,Tasmania
Australia

by **David J. Ran** » Sat, 09 Nov 1996 04:00:00

>Gavel,

(SNIP)

Exactly. Nothing will improve your times better than racing head to
head with a friend and discussing setups.

(SNIP)

^^^^^^^^^^

Hehe, I should have mentioned in my previous post that this is the
friend I modem race with. Although I've never beaten him, my times
have improved greatly. And I can also verify that Steve does not
cheat in any way. The lousy-good-for-nothing-always-better-than-me-
chump. But hey, what are friends for? <G>

David Range
DJR on Hawaii

rec.autos.simulators

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating

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Hawaii Cheating

Hawaii Cheating